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The Voris Kerfuffle

I am perplexed. Some of my blogging confreres are a in such a tizzy over the latest missive from the baron of bombast, the kaiser of choleric, Michael Voris. (Apologies to Bill Donohue)

Voris, about whom I am conflicted, did his daily soliloquy on the topic of a letter by Global Warming Inc. requesting that pastors devote the Easter Sunday homily to the topic of Earth Day.

Voris pointed out that global warming is a scam (check) by the forces of population control (check) to encourage people to contracept and abort their way to a greener planet (check).

Voris noted that all of this is in direct contradiction to the teaching of the Church. Check again. He goes on to say that Catholics should abandon a Church that promotes such anti-Christian nonsense for the simple reason that this Church is not Catholic in any meaningful way.

He is, of course, right on all counts. But it is his suggested remedy that has unleashed the Catholic blogoshpere's ever ready desire to scold.

Voris suggested that if one hears a homily about Earth Day on Easter, that you should forgo the collection plate and resign from the Parish on Monday.

Even the hyperbolic suggestion of such incivility has given some bloggers the vapors.

Voris makes the case that any local Church that embraces such anti-life and anti-Catholic tomfoolery, especially on Easter Sunday, has probably lost its Catholicity. His conclusion may be questionable, but I think he at least has a point.

I am particularly amused by bloggers who make frequent use of hyperbole as a rhetorical cattle-prod are now so overcome with the brazenness of it all. One even used the hyperbolic and very misleading title "Did Michael Voris Instruct Catholics to Leave the Church?" as a launching point to discuss Voris' incivility. Apparently incivility is ok when deriding the uncivil. One day I will write the best-selling "Irony for Dummies".

While I do not entirely embrace Mr. Voris' remedy, I think he makes some really valid points. So what is all the hubbub about? Mark Shea accuses him of delusions that he is a Bishop. Mark makes a larger point about avoiding talking heads who think they are the arbiter of all things Catholic with which I generally agree, but I don't really see how Voris is supposed to be delusionally usurping the role of Bishop. I don't think he is.

Voris says that if your priest talks to you about global warming on the holiest day of the year instead of our resurrected Savior that your parish is likely so far gone that you should run, not walk, to an orthodox parish. What is so wrong about that?

When I ran into such craziness at my parish, the diocesan Director of Worship advised me to switch parishes, which I did. Was he playing bishop too?

Like I said, I am not sure that bypassing the collection plate and resigning from the parish is really the right remedy in this situation. I had tar and feathers in mind**.

**For those of you that have not yet read my soon to be published "Irony for Dummies",please note that the "tar and feathers" comment is hyperbole which is usually defined as an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally used to make a point. Get over it.

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93 comments:

Anonymous said...

Gosh, I have never though of Voris as my Bishop. I have a friend who gives me a lot of advice, even about Catholic stuff and she isn't my Bishop, either. I don't understand why Shea and other bloggers display such negativity about him. Mr. Voris is hitting a nerve, but I completely agree with him. That still doesn't make him my Bishop.

Suz

Adrienne said...

That's exactly what we did. I will not tolerate a bunch of social justice nonsense.

Clinton said...

If I read Mr. Shea's post aright, he's under the impression that Mr.
Voris was advising his viewers to not just leave their heterodox parish,
but to leave the Church entirely. That's the only reason I can imagine
why Mr. Shea would have such a case of the vapors over Mr. Voris'
otherwise sensible advice.

How absurd must a parish be before Mr. Shea would admit that a
layman could advise fellow Catholics to run, not walk, to another?
Does he draw that line at two giant puppets, or at four?

Lisa Graas said...

Going after radical Islamists is a bit different than freaking out over "breathing one word about Earth Day" in a homily.


But whatever.

Lisa Graas said...

Also, one of the producers told me he was fine with what I wrote....so I might ask, why do you have a problem with it?

Gil Garza said...

When a layman starts telling other lay folks how they should behave in church some people take offense. "Lay folks shouldn't act so uppity," they say. "Who do they think they are!" they retort.

This kind of discomfort strikes me as clericalism and is exactly the kind of discomfort that has caused good lay folk to be silent when our clergy and religious do horrible things.

marie said...

Voris makes the case that any local Church that embraces such anti-life and anti-Catholic tomfoolery, especially on Easter Sunday, has probably lost its Catholicity.

What gives it's parish it's "Catholicity" - the homily, or the Eucharist?

Z. Hayden said...

I like Michael Voris. It was his videos on the Faith (from St. Michael's Media) which was among my first dialogues with the Faith when I was exploring it. Catholic Answers was another. I understand that some dislike Voris for his lack of propensity to pull punches (and some, because in an episode of St. Michael's Media, he expressed his dislike of the N.O., or, rather, his dislike of how it is typically handled), but I have not yet found him to step out of line doctrinally.

kat said...

We left our parish after receiving a letter from the priest asking us to leave, "You might find another parish a better fit." Apparently our Catholicism made him uncomfortable since we expressed our difficulties to him about his statements during homilies such as, "of course you can come to Communion if you are divorced, that requiring an annulment stuff is dumb." But we should thank him as we never would have found a really great parish home not 30 minutes away if he hadn't chased us out the door.

Some Catholics really stand firm on the geographical parish rule, but others stand firm that the priest's homilies match up to the Catechism- I find myself one of the latter.

Peco said...

Amen! When I watched Voris I felt that he was basically right and then the next day I see all this anti-Voris drivel and think "What the hell did I miss?" If most of these pseudo-intellectual bloggers had half the passion that Voris has the Church would be in a lot better shape. Is Voris perfect? No, but who is? Most of these people who are so quick to throw a good man like Voris under the bus often come across as holier than thou and probably need a good 'come to Jesus' moment themselves. And when I saw the referenced headline ("Did Michael Voris Instruct catholics to Leave the Church?")my first thought was: What a cowardly distortion of what he said and meant! That was shameless and almost had to be an intentional slander. How about all you supposed above-the-fray commentators getting off your high horses and at least give the guy some credit for loving the Church and boldly proclaiming the Truth.

I am not Spartacus said...

I like Mr. Voris even though I find him a bit tepid. He seems to be a stand-up guy and the Catholic Church could use, oh, I dunno, maybe another 100 million or more men like him.

I think many are shocked because he is so masculine in demeanor, conviction, and presentation; and he is the antithesis of the feminised girly-man sob-sisters the modern Church has produced in its cookie-cutting be nice machine.

Mr. Shea has a lot of good things to say but he is a lot like the girl with a curl.

Chrysostomos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chrysostomos said...

It seems to me that Voris' critics' vitriol might be best paraphrased thus: "Damn, I wish I had said that."

Paul Zummo said...

Mark Shea accuses him of delusions that he is a Bishop.

Pope Shea is accusing someone else of delusions of being a higher episcopal authority? Do tell.

Ranting Catholic Mom said...

Voris has produced a two-hour video on the church and global warming that is worth watching. It lays out the eugenics connection to the climate change movement, and how the Vatican was snookered into buying meaningless carbon-offsets, among other global warming scandals.

After seeing both videos, it is clear what Voris means what he says: Leave your parish, and tell them why, if the heresy of the global warming crowd is allowed to supplant the meaning of the Resurrection, without which we could not be Catholics.

Central teaching versus heresy. That's what this is about. Voris got it right.

Sue said...

I find Michael Voris to be candid until it hurts, and have yet to hear anything he says be out of line with Doctrine. I appreciate the information he gives. I love that he has no qualms talking about sin. I understand he had an issue with the Scranton Diocese not letting him speak even though they let a lesbian pro-abortion person speak at the college there. To me that is an outrage.
And to Marie, I say, many of these priests do not believe in the real prescence themselves. US Cardinal Raymond L. Burke, head of the Vatican’s Supreme Courtsaid, “If we err by thinking we are the center of the liturgy, the Mass will lead to a loss of faith,” and further went on to say, "Unfortunately, too many priests and bishops treat violations of liturgical norms as something that is unimportant when, in fact, they are "serious abuses." So I think what Michael Voris was pointing out was if your Priest chooses to take his Easter Homily from Leonardo DiCaprio and Barbara Streisand, then probably you are attending one of those masses that will eventually lead to a loss of faith.

Jay Anderson said...

I am NOT at all a fan of Mr. Voris's style or his propensity to go overboard sometimes in showing disrespect for the Bishops. But I find little to disagree with him about on substance. Here, he seems dead on.

And it does seem calumnious to accuse him of encouraging people to leave the Catholic Church.

scotju said...

I'm all for Michael Voris's suggestion that good Catholic's ought to leave liberal parishes. The Diocesian hierarchs need to be sent a message: no orthodoxy, no members, no money in the collection plate! If the American hierarchy is going to close down parishes, let's help them by withdrawing support from the liberal ones that are destroying the faith.

William said...

That was definitely an extreme statement, but what else can you say? Try to talk the Priest out of his green induced haze? If he's that far gone from worshiping Jesus to worshiping the Earth, then I don't think much will move him.

Foxfier said...

Dang, this is the season for folks to jump up and attack in rather ironic ways, isn't it?

Simon said...

What is so wrong about it, Patrick, as I pointed out at the Anchoress' combox, is that when "conservatives" abandon "liberal" parishes (for want of better terms), they abandon those "conservatives" who are working to fix the parish, thus making the task far more difficult. Unless there are children involved, which I concede makes for a different situation, abandoning ship is a fundamentally egocentric thing to do: It assumes that the problem is that YOU will be exposed to well-meaning yet borderline heretical nonsense rather than that well-meaning yet borderline heretical nonsense is taking place. All that is accomplished by Voris' cry to abandon one's post is, in the short term, to make it harder for those who remain to resist daffy ideas (should we use chant or soporific hymnody? Guess how that vote at the liturgy committee will go if the conservatives flee), and thus, in the long run, to cede another parish to the "liberal" agenda. You want to know why so many parishes moved their tabernacle out of sight and out of mind? It's because the people who might have said "stop" followed Voris' advice and left. We end up with a few very conservative parishes awash in a sea of very liberal parishes. And on which shore (if that doesn't torturously mix the metaphor) do you suppose new converts will wash up?

That's what is so wrong about it. It's a self-involved move that makes things harder for everyone else, and which in the long term feeds the polarization of the Church.

Voris is right about a great many things, but fundamentally, he presents himself as an obnoxious, self-righteous prig. In some ways, he's the opposite of Fr. Corapi: Corapi's compelling presentation could convert Calvin. Voris, by contrast, acts like such an ass that even folks like me who agree with much of the substance of his remarks are repelled.

Anonymous said...

Voris is right about a great many things, but fundamentally, he presents himself as an obnoxious, self-righteous prig.

Simon, repeat after me. Pot. Kettle. Pot. Kettle...

Rick said...

1. No one shakes a fruitless tree.

2. A Church that puts the Salvific Work of the Incarnate Son of God in the back seat must be abandoned; at that point it has it's apostlic roots from Judas Iscariot.

3. Also, if one dances with wolves, one begins to howl. (so something like that) To stay with those people is tantamount to hanging out with bad companions - a sin that needs to be confessed. (But what if all the Churches in your diocese were like that? I guess one can there go for the Eucharist then read the Pope's homily from the web.)

3. The Pope did empower layfolks to evangelize. So, Voris is within his rights as a baptized and confirmed Christian. Has Voris' critics done anything to bring others to the truth besides type up some rash judgments?

4. Because of Voris, I am thinking of doing something like that too. I doubt if I will be a fraction as effective but if I can help one person know, love and serve God better, then it will be worth it. (But first, let me do my taxes and pay Obama's people for transforming God's country into a cesspool of immorality. I can't default and be dragged to jail with 5 little children depending on me.) I know the Archibolds do something on the radio already. They too are an inspiration to me.

Blackrep said...

Mark Shea needs to apologize to this guy.

I swear, I never heard of Voris before this day, and just looking at it from the outside, Shea seems to have too much time on his hands. I don't read Shea regularly, but when I'm blogreading every once in awhile I get dumped onto his site. He has a tendency to nit-pick fellow Catholics who agree with him 98% of the time in a way that makes him seem cranky, bitter, resentful and... hmm... unhappy.

Anonymous said...

@ Lisa who concludes, "But whatever."

Yes, indeed. "But whatever." The argumentative equivalent of "you're the one who's wrong, because I don't I agree with you." Voris is no saint, but he's not the enemy you make him to be. The argument still stands that some folks just think they are above the criticisms they use to attack others.

HyacinthClare said...

I think I'm done with Mark Shea. Maybe Lisa didn't hear more than one of those talks and thinks he said to leave the Church rather than to leave A church and immediately find another Catholic Church that acts like one... maybe she is just uninformed. But Mark Shea's mindreading is inexcusable. Voris is 2011's John the Baptist, guys. If you can't handle John the Baptist, who ARE you in this story?

Anonymous said...

Amen!

The idea that "good, conservative adult Catholics" are impervious to the harms of bad teaching from the pulpit is based on pride. Sometimes the bad stuff is obvious -- e.g., giving Earth Day primacy of place in an Easter homily. But you can bet your buttons that if the pastor of a parish is spouting that kind of nonsense, he's also spouting more subtle error -- perhaps too subtle for even a good, well intentioned Catholic to pick up on. So, he imbibes the error and it affects him/his life/his family without his even being aware.

Subtle error or simple omission of Catholic teaching infected the parish I grew up in, and by the time I was 18, I hardly knew what it meant to be Catholic or what Catholics believed. My father tried for two decades to be an amiable voice for truth in that parish -- to absolutely no avail. Changing parishes wasn't really an option back in those days, as neighboring parishes were all as bad or worse than ours.

The notion that right-minded Catholics would be able to shape a parish for good when there is pastor who simply and obviously doesn't have the Faith is at best naive. It does not comport with the experience that many good Catholics with a whole lot more experience with such pastors and parishes have lived.

~Suzanne

Patrick said...

@ Simon:

I thought that was a very good comment, Simon.

Mary De Voe said...

I have heard homilies about welcoming openly practicing homosexuals into a parish (a visiting parish in another state) and the high cost of dog insurance to people in the pews who have no insurance and how long the stayover was for the trip to Lake Tahao in another state. It was then that I decided to filled the collection basket only when the homilist told me something about God and His only Son, Jesus Christ.

credocatholic said...

I wish that Catholic commentators would realize that they are spinning their wheels when they try to imitate political commentators. What works for Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly...etc. does not work in the Catholic realm. The entertaining sarcasm does not promote charity or invite people to reconsider errant positions.

People who disagree with him are enraged and dig in. People who agree with him are split into two categories: those who thrive on the satisfaction of hearing somebody say what the filter of civility prevents us from saying, and those who just wish he would stop embarrassing himself and the rest of us who hold similar positions but don't want to be lumped into a stereotype that he continue to perpetuate.

I hope and pray that Mr. Voris will one day take a good hard look at his delivery style and consider whether he is doing it for the promotion of himself or for the good of the Catholic Church.

Simon said...

Suzanne, it's a lot more likely that one person will be a lonely voice for truth if everyone else who knows the truth bugs out and leaves him defending that hill alone, which is what Voris—oh, he isn't the only one, I see it all the time—is proposing. One may or many not be able to help by staying, but one certainly won't by leaving—and then what of those who are left behind? We are to be our brethren's keeper. We are to be concerned about what happens when an innocent would-be convert shows up on the door of a parish whose RCIA program borders on the heretical because all the orthodox catechists fled the parish rather than suffer through one more awful David Haas Mass. You suggest that my position is naive, and perhaps that is true (I prefer "optimistic"), but in a different way, I think the "abandon ship" approach is all the more so because it ignores the long term ramifications of the strategy. We should be working to make all parishes fully orthodox, and we can't do that by retreating to a few orthodox parishes and raising the drawbridge.

Rick said...

@Simon: It is pointless to reform a "Liberal" pastor. It is like going against Obama when he is on a tirade against the GOP's budget plan. There is no honest debate, only ridicule and spins. And there is no "voting" on the parish council either. It's not like having 3 equal branches of government. So, if you have a pinko commie, Liberal for a pastor or an associate, then you're SOL or your options are few.

Walking out with your donations sends a strong message to the diocese and from the diocese to Rome. That is a proven way.

I am not Spartacus said...

"Guess how that vote at the liturgy committee will go if the conservatives flee"

LOL That is one reason I fled. "A Liturgy Committee" is the attempt by Catholics to democratise the Church as much as possible so it will resemble a veritable Catholic Congregationalism.

With a Mass that has so many options, one does not know what nightmare of a liturgy he will be forced to endure..."But, but, it is STILL the Mass, isn't it?"

Folks who tolerate such nonsense at The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass would never tolerate that in their own lives. Would they sit still while on their Birthdays their kids began singing, "Happy important day, you Parent, Happy important day to you.."' Do not answer :)

Those who object to Mr. Voris are forever setting-up men like him as an example of a far right extremist straw man and he is counterposed to the far left straw man du jour; today, Fr Pflegler. And then the "Pox on both their houses" pronouncements are made and we are left, I guess, to follow the golden mean behavior of the individual posting that shop-worn tactic.

Individuals who post such things are highly likely residing in Parishes with a very very low, um creative atmosphere, shall we say.

And to those who, like my own self, are STILL resentful of having my spiritual inheritance, The Immemorial Mass, stolen by modernist mountebanks are, routinely, told to shut-up and take it like a man.

"Look here, fella. Just because you desired to worship as did your Father did, and as his Father did, and as his Father did, and as his Father did, and as his Father did (repeat, at least, 380 more times) is no reason to object just because what was once said to be The Holiest Action on Earth is now forbidden to you. Stop being so selfish and suck-it-up. If God did not intend Mass to be your own personal Calvary He would not have forced Pope Paul VI to force it upon you in the name of something, or other; whatever.."

Well, those of us, like my own self, who maintained The Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority and who can NOT get our local very Ordinaries to comply with the crystal clear directives of Summorum Pontificum the BEST thing for us to do is to get the hell out of those nightmare Churches, which are headed for a collapse and join a Traditional Parish, one run by the likes of an FFSP, and build-up the Church because the modern Church has, by every single objective measurement, continued its downward trend since 1965. It is in a Free Fall and all the popular apologists can do is to scream, "Don't listen to that man giving you notice of impending disaster. He is a big blue meanie."

Anonymous said...

Bloggers jealous?

Anonymous said...

Ok this may be off the present topic but as for abandoning and leaving the Church and parish which sermonizes on global warming, hugging trees, and horrors, blasphemy! One sermon given by a deacon on Pentecost Sunday, went into a frenzied humorous talk on the Holy "Ghost," esssntially making fun of the Third Person of the Blessed Tinity in such a way that sent the priest and congregation rolicking in laughter. I flew from that church right then and there. This is what Voris is telling us. These churches are not Catholic, though as many clain, by doing so, we are abandoning the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, something doubtful, when there probably was a defect in these confection of the Sacred Species that no transubstantion has taken place, and besides, only about 20 % of Catholics believe in the Real Presence. DO not support these churches.

Foxfier said...

But Mark Shea's mindreading is inexcusable.

Yeah, that habit aimed at any who dare disagree with him is one of the many reasons I stopped reading him years ago. Worries me that the Anchoress is starting to refer to him so often.

Just love all the lectures about how we're supposed to stay in a parish where the priest is off his rocker so we can try to undermine him. (even if it's for a good cause, that's what it is)

How often have folks claimed that this or that orthodox thing should be dumped, because people aren't showing up for it? Pretty obvious that voting with your feet matters.

Dad29 said...

not intended to be taken literally

And here I sit with 50 gallons of boiling tar and 265 naked chickens in the back yard.

Not to mention a couple thousand sharpened pitchforks, several hundred (tarred) torches, and the Iron Maiden all oiled up and ready to go.

Ann said...

Go to the Tridentine Rite. You will never hear such downright and scandalous nonsense about Earth Day or any other politically correct thing! Voris is right on. I am glad I am not going to a vernacular Mass on Sunday. If I did and I heard such nonsense from the pulpit, I would be thrown out, because I would stand up and shout: Stop, you are promoting contraception, abortion, sterilization in the name of healing the planet. God called us to be good stewards of the earth and all it contains, not let it become the focus of our worship!!!

Simon said...

Patrick, thanks.

I am not Spartacus, I tend to agree with most of what you said. But the remedy of leaving is not going to help that agenda and may hurt it. Here's one concrete example, since you brought up Summorum Pontificum: How can you expect many parishes in a given area to develop a stable group of the faithful wanting the EF Mass (as SP puts it) if all those folks in that area who want the EF voluntarily concentrate into a single parish? Doing so is, as I've said above, fundamentally egocentric: you prioritize YOUR desire to hear the EF over the larger goal of the EF being celebrated routinely and reverently in every parish.

Rick, I think you're off-base. First, you assume that if a parish is "liberal" it's because the pastor is a screaming liberal. Not so. Second, even if he is, while you may be correct that gentle and friendly persuasion probably won't fix him, a trip through diocesan wringer—or the Vatican's—may, and if those who recognize the problems leave, who do you suppose is going to initiate that process? (As a sidenote, I disagree that such people can't ever be fixed: It's far easier for someone to dismiss conservatives if that person has no relationship with such people, and it's far easier for a liberal priest to do what he likes if he knows that the parish is overwhelmingly liberal than it would be if he knows the parish is more mixed.) Third, I think you underrate the influence, even authority, of the parish council in many parishes. I agree that their role should be merely advisory, but this discussion has to meet the world as it is not as we'd prefer. And fourth, I find your claim that it is "proven" that "[w]alking out with your donations sends a strong message to the diocese and from the diocese to Rome" to be utterly fanciful. Proven? It makes no sense (how would the diocese, let alone Rome, know that you have left or why?), is contradicted by experience (when the protestants did so, did the strong message thus sent incline Rome to their cause?), and I'm unaware of any evidence for it.

Rick said...

" I'm unaware of any evidence for it."
or against it. I spent half my life in Church service so I do know a little something about Ecclesiastical politics and economics. It is not a perfect institution but it's all we've got. Let's leave it at that and part as friends.

Harrison said...

The problem is simple: he is promoting a "pick your parish as you choose" mentality. I hate to say it, but he's wrong and defiant of the law of the Church. Voris is good about using truths and then throwing in his own little agenda in the end. But he is contradicting the law of the Church on where you should be going for Sunday Mass. In fact, this is a HUGE issue in the Church, where Catholics just go where they think the priest is the most orthodox. We are not here to pick and choose. Yes, there are crappy priests out there, but the sacraments are valid and I fear that Voris is edging himself (he is good about not going over the edge, but he is darn close) of falling into Donatism (a heresy that hasn't seemed to really be weened out of the Church despite the fact that it's, well, a heresy! You have a right to talk to your pastor, you don't even have to agree with their decision, and you can talk to the bishop. But that's about as far as it goes according to the law of the Church. It's funny when people pick and choose obedience...thus becoming the very thing they hate.

Anonymous said...

To Rick and Not Spartacus----Yes, Yes, Yes! The Catholic Church is not a democracy. It's not my job to make sure the Catholic parish I attend is orthodox---that is the job of the priest! If he has no interest in removing the liberal lay quacks that run the RCIA program or the CCD program, then one should reasonably ascertain that he is happy with the status quo. Why must faithful orthodox Catholics be subjected to ridicule when then kneel down and open their mouths to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist? Why must faithful and orthodox Catholics be subjected to sneers and jeers when they have 6,8 or 10 children? Why must faithful and orthodox Catholics be criticized when they request more sacred music at Mass? Answer---we shouldn't! Why should we be must faithful and orthodox Catholics be condemned because they leave liberal parishes for more orthodox ones? We shouldn't. To say that "we can't leave because some poor soul might come to RCIA and not learn the Truth without us" is down right delusional. What about the faithful Catholics in the pews??!! We left a long time ago for a Tridentine Mass.

Foxfier said...

I hate to say it, but he's wrong and defiant of the law of the Church.

Can you give a citation for this?

I've found people saying they personally disapprove, but that it's not contrary at all, and other saying it depends on local custom.

Lisa Graas said...

Here's a little clarification for you.

http://lisagraas.com/2011/04/15/mind-boggling/

I've never known such insanity from Catholics. Really.

I am not Spartacus said...

Those who are wrong and defiant of Ecclesiastical Law and direct Papal Motu Proprios are the Bishops but the popular apologist is not into criticising Bishops. They are into attacking safe targets.

Oncet, I was part of a group of men who obtained an audience with our Bishop. We were very respectful and we had all of our Liturgical Legislative Ducks in a row and they had no ruffled pin feathers. We made reasonable requests - the first Indult at the time -and the Bishop promised "I will meet with you on a regular basis to resolve these matters."

And then he refused to meet with us or even respond to our written and oral communications to him. In fact, I once spoke to the Chancellor of The Diocese and he told me, "We all laugh at you. We think you are insane."

(Ok, he was right, but, still, that was insensitive)

In any event, over at WDTPRS, Fr. Z, who used to be on the Ecclesia Dei Commission in Rome has written, more than a few times, that what happened to me was what happened to score after score after score of other Catholics who nevertheless, maintained the Bonds of Unity, in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.

And so now I advise others who are in a similar situation - Flee that Parish like St John fled the public bath when the heretic, Cerinthus, entered it because he was afraid it might collapse due to the presence of such an infamous heretic

It is the Bishops who are in violation of the Law, not Mr. Voris. But Voris is easy to attack. What is he going to do, refuse an Imprimatur for your next book?

It makes absolutely no sense to remain in a Neo-protestant Parish if there is an FSSP or other Traditional Order Parish/Mass or Byzantine Rite Catholic Church in your area.

I used to go to a Maronite Mass in a local Hospital and I used to laugh at the idea that one of their Priests would tolerate their Divine Liturgy being messed with.

Ask yourself what would happen if the Bishop of an Orthodox Church told his Congregation, "We have a revised Divine Liturgy and so by next week we will have junked the Iconostasis; now everybody turn and greet your neighbor..."

They'd would STOP that nonsense ON THE SPOT.

But then again, The Orthodox ain't into feminism and trying to act like protestants

Rick said...

@Harrison: Re: "The problem is simple: he is promoting a "pick your parish as you choose" mentality. I hate to say it, but he's wrong and defiant of the law of the Church."

Donatism is indeed a heresy - I agree. I don't know much Canon Law so if you can inform me where it says I have to go to the parish closest to my home. I do know that I am primarily responsible for my spiritual life and growth therein. And I will drive 10 miles to hear a holy priest preach if he will inflame my heart with fervour. God knows I need all the help I can get.

Anonymous said...

The Vatican believes in global warming -- while you say "check" to it being contra-Catholic. I can check you off as an ignoramus now!

Anonymous said...

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24053

Stop being anti-Catholic and listening to demagogues who follow the religion of the GOP as an excuse to denigrate the successors of the Apostles.

Brian Kopp said...

Bravo to Michael Voris, and Bravo to Patrick Archbold for stating the obvious and standing up to these dishonest bloggers who purposely misrepresented Voris' position!

Harrison said...

It requires a bit of going around the Code, but here we go (I know this from my Canon law class as our prof, who is as solid as can be, admonished people for going to different parishes by disobeying the law of the Church).


Can. 212 §1 Christ's faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound to show christian obedience to what the sacred Pastors, who represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith and prescribe as rulers of the Church.


Can. 519 The parish priest is the proper pastor of the parish entrusted to him. He exercises the pastoral care of the community entrusted to him under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, whose ministry of Christ he is called to share, so that for this community he may carry out the offices of teaching, sanctifying and ruling with the cooperation of other priests or deacons and with the assistance of lay members of Christ's faithful, in accordance with the law.

§3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

Can. 100 A person is said to be: a resident (incola) in the place where the person has a domicile; a temporary resident (advena) in the place where the person has a quasi-domicile; a traveler (peregrinus) if the person is outside the place of a domicile or quasi-domicile which is still retained; a transient (vagus) if the person does not have a domicile or quasi- domicile anywhere.

Can. 102 §1. Domicile is acquired by that residence within the territory of a certain parish or at least of a diocese, which either is joined with the intention of remaining there permanently unless called away or has been protracted for five complete years.

Can. 107 §1. Through both domicile and quasi-domicile, each person acquires his or her pastor and ordinary.

Thus, they have the legitimate care under their pastor where they find domicile. If they go to the parish 10 blocks down the road and it is not part of their parish, that is not their parish. The only parish that allows for anyone to be a member of it is the Diocesan Cathedral for it is the Church of the Diocese. To say that one is going to another parish is to say that they are rejecting the pastor the bishop has given said parish, a right which the bishop holds.

At the same time, as you can see from the canons, there is freedom to offer concerns to the pastors and other ecclesial authorities if we find the law of the Church not being fulfilled. So you have rights to ensure that your rights as Christians are being fulfilled. But, canon law obliges you obedience to your pastor, which means submission to the fact that they are your pastor. To go to another parish is to say to the bishop that you refuse to be obedient to the choice which, under the law of the Church, he has every right to make. Some of the greatest Catholics I know are ones who, despite the good or bad actions of their pastor, remained and were faithful. How do you expect parishes to grow if we are moving everywhere.

I can say, too, that Dioceses are finding ways to ensure that people stay in their parishes, because you are required to be at the parish where you have domicile or quasi-domicile. The CHurch is not a democracy. It`s funny how we claim to be obedient to our bishops, but when we have a pastor we do not like, we are openly going against the free action of the bishop. So much for the virtue of obedience among the faithful...

If you want holiness in your priests, perhaps begin by trying to be faithful to them. Pray for them, offer sacrifices and fasting for them. Its funny how, really, we treat the parish like any political entity, something the Church is not.

I am not Spartacus said...

Dear Mrs. Graas. "I hope that someone more capable than I am could explain to Mr. Voris that Jesus is present in all the tabernacles of the world."

What a thoughtful and judicious and reasonable and irenic use of snark.

Say, instead of snarking at Mr. Voris, who was perfectly within his rights to say what he said (See Canon Law), please tell us what a Priest would have to do to get you to abandon a Parish?

Massive Puppets Mass ? Clown Mass? Anything?

And is your personal preference in this matter normative?

If you ain't seen anything this crazy, it is because you are a convert.

On any captious issue, the Faithful bring with them bad memories of more than fifty years of the mayhem and madness this modern revolution has stirred-up in the Church and because it was a revolution imposed by The Hierarchy it can only be ended by The Hierarchy and it is a bit off-putting to hear the victims of the revolution being told that the sound of their emotional blood is making a mess of our pretty and nice Church.

Well, Sister. That's the way it is in our modern Church and more and more men, especially male men, are getting really fed-up and it is a time of monumental importance.

The future direction of the Church is being fought over. Right now. Men are created as warriors and you can not expect them to act and sound like Mr Rogers (Really, he was a man?).

The Catholic Church needs everyone in it - lovely female converts like you and bold men like Mr Voris.

Simon said...

Harrison said: "If you want holiness in your priests, perhaps begin by trying to be faithful to them. Pray for them, offer sacrifices and fasting for them." That, and pray that more young men called to the priesthood will accept their vocations!

I am not Spartacus said...

Dear Harrison. My expert can beat-up your expert :)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur158.htm

Mark P. Shea said...

If I read Mr. Shea's post aright, he's under the impression that Mr.
Voris was advising his viewers to not just leave their heterodox parish,
but to leave the Church entirely.


Nope. That's not what I thought he said and it's not what I said he said.

Foxfier said...

Little too much jumping around for my peace of mind, even if there'd been a link to see the quotes in context; the EWTN link from IANSpartacus seems much more solid.

Anonymous said...

As a Director of RCIA at a "liberal" parish for 12 years, I have finally concluded that I cannot remain. If the Pastor does not want to teach church doctrine, then it will not be taught. You can do what you can do, but in the end, you are helping no one. You are leading put in a position of omitting Doctrine & leading people astray, or you just openly defy your pastor. Reporting it to the Bishop does nothing. Because the Bishop does nothing. I once felt I could make a huge difference. But now I just find myself angry (wrath is not good) and I feel like you give only enough information to people to be a danger to their souls, while I personally have been specifically told NOT TO TEACH certain things because Fr does not like it. No matter that Christ likes it. For those of you who say you must stay, I disagree. It has taken a toll on my own soul.

Foxfier said...

Anon-my mom was in a similar situation with a priest that would come in and tell her high school religious classes that it was just fine to sleep with someone without being married "if you really loved them."

William said...

Simon, I think you have a very reasonable point of view, but Protestants leaving the Church did force the Church to clean up abuses and more clearly state Its case, as has always been true throughout the Church's history.

As to the "Think of the Civility!" arguments. Yeah, because if there's one thing the prophets of the Old Testament were, it was civil. Everyone knows that God’s definition of civility is “Let civilization do whatever it wants at all times.”

Whew! Good thing Jesus came and now all we’re doing is smearing the divine gift of His Mercy with the greater good of perpetually letting our neighbors be ignorant of Christian teaching and live in whatever mortal sin personally appeals to them.

Someone needs to go back and tell Jesus that denying the Devil's temptation to rule the world was a mistake, because just think of how much money we'd be getting in the collection plates!

Anonymous said...

Foxfier, my priest told me to stop having kids & get my tubes tied. I do pray for him everyday though.

Byzcat said...

I already voted with my feet. I couldn't find an orthodox parish in my area, so I left for the Byzantine Catholics. The weather's fine over here. Now I don't have to worry about liturgical abuses and heterodox sermons. By the way, I do like Michael Voris. He makes very good, succinct and factual points about the state of the Church. For those who listen to him, even if they disagree with his conclusions, his facts are well documented and researched and his loyalty to the Church and Christ is unswerving. Hats off to you, Michael! Keep fighting the good fight of Faith!

Anonymous said...

For my part, after I gave up on the regular parish (after several bad masses and a 'dress up like a middle-eastern magi' mass which basically completely appalled me a couple of years ago), I arranged to go solely to the extraordinary form Parish precisely because it was defined to be the parish in my diocese for those who were adherents for that form of the mass, which I can definitely say I am.

I probably would have done something like that anyway, due to my informed conscience, but I thought it was an excellent option that my Bishop gave us to get around those canon law restrictions. I'm happy to be a member of the EF parish, and don't mind the 30 minute commute each way every Sunday. Small price to pay for fidelity to the Church teachings.

Blackrep said...

I noticed that Mrs.Graas has closed her comments on this matter, yet feels free to come over here and hold forth. I would suggest that she keeps her own house in order.

And Mrs. Graas: you won't have many readers if you keep calling your public "insane." What seems suspicious to me in the way of sanity is using the argument of "Jesus in the tabernacle" to keep sensible Catholics nailed to their pews despite the utter heresy uttered before us and our innocent children. In this way, any yahoo with a collar and Jesus held hostage behind him can subject us to anything he wants.

Simple clericalism, magical thinking, and a dose of plain bossy-boots thrown in causes this particular syndrome among Catholics. It causes them to abandon common sense.

Ranting Catholic Mom said...

Really, I think people would have a better understanding of this short video if they would watch the Catholic Investigative Agency video on Global Warming. It is long... 2 hours... but if you want to attack or defend Voris, you should view the whole argument. I watched it with our home-schooled son. He doesn't bash bishops or priests in general, only a few who have made scathing remarks and expensive errors. http://www.realcatholictv.com/cia/04GlobalWarming/

Anonymous said...

Yes unfortunately I don't read Mr Shea anymore. Sadly he can't seem to realize that Bishops are only human and that historically there have been many who were hetrodox. Just because a person criticizes a bishop doesn't mean he is attacking the Church- its about time some realized that. However, most Catholic bloggers who have attacked Mr Voris defend almost everything the bishops do and attack Catholics who defend Catholic tradition.

therese rita said...

I have no idea what Voris says bc the times I've tried to watch his vids I can't understand what he's saying due to the fact that his behavior is screaming so loudly. If Trads would attempt to speak the Truth IN LOVE maybe their message would be more audible.

Anonymous said...

Therese,
In Love, accept him for who he is, someone who speaks perhaps harshly, but speaks the truth. It should not matter, for he is who he is, but if what he says is true then listen.....Jesus said “He that is not with Me is against Me,” (Matt 12:30) and “….my brethren are they who hear the Word of God and do it.” (Lk 8:21), and he also said that those who refuse his Truth are doomed to fiery Gehenna. While one may take issue with Voris’ specific phrases or demeanor at times his intent is one of Truth and serving God.

Anonymous said...

the truth hurts... doesn't mean it isn't true.

BuckeyeSandy said...

I actually like my regular sessions of adult Catholic faith formation and the instructor, Michael Voris.

I happen to think that this time, he hit a nerve with people that might harbor a bit of "politically correct paganism" in addition to their Catholic faith.

Carol McKinley said...

Well said Patrick, per usual.

I've read the comments around blogosphere and I think it's important to make a clarification.

The idea that it's ok to sit around in a parish being led into ignorance or heresy - or both - where everyone around you has been robbed of the tools to receive the Blessed Sacrament in a state of Grace is some kind of service to the Divinity of Christ, or the Eucharist, is delusional. There are spiritual consequences to receiving the Eucharist unworthily which is creating a tornado of spiritual insanity. A generation has been lost and we are drowning in the toxic waste.

The schism is full blown and our complacency has permitted it to flourish. We have been sitting in parishes run by schismatics. We have been even giving them money to operate it. It has become nothing but a fundraising operation. They are persecuting our priests who want to teach the authentic faith.

Enough is enough. Take your family and flee to a parish headed by a parish in union with Rome. By their fruits you shall know them.

Anonymous said...

Michael Voris is terrific! Why is this guy Shea ripping him up? Very uncharitable. I've been watching Vortex videos for quite a while and they have strengthened and informed my faith. I NEVER got the impression that Voris was impressed with himself or seeking celebrity. A Catholic 'star'? What is that? A bit of an oxymoron- no? He is standing up big and strong for the Catholic Faith. And 'entertaining delusions that he is a bishop'.......REALLY! A meanspirited, ad hominen attack, if I've ever seen one! (and I have) We should be closing ranks against the puppet 'Mass', not Michael Voris. Shame on you Mark Shea!.

Anonymous said...

BTW- I do believe Pope Benedict XVI used the term- 'personal parish' in his Motu Proprio. He was referring to those who attend the Latin Mass and travel some distance to do so. It is an unfortunate result of the post-conciliar church that the Mass looks completely different going from one parish to the next, even unrecognizable. When I pray the Latin Mass, it is the same, whether I am in NYC, London, Venice, or elsewhere. It helps me love and worship my God as best I can.

John C. Hathaway said...

Last year, on Corpus Christi, I ended up at Mass with one the more liberal priests in town (he named his parish hall after Cardinal Bernardin), as I often did because he had the only 5:30 Sunday Mass. Anyway, he gave what I called a fantastic homily-for almost any other Sunday of the year. When he should have been preaching on transubstantiation, he preached instead on giving food to the poor.

I did not leave church in protest.

However, I did leave church in protest the previous year, when he gave his Corpus Christi homily on how "Jesus never intended all of this," that Mass should be taking place in people's homes, and that Mass is "just a community meal," and the Church has gotten out of hand with all this Eucharistic worship.

John C. Hathaway said...

I should add that I have a very weak cardiovascular system, and whatever the merits of demerits of leaving Mass, when I encounter a homily like that, I need to leave Mass out of medical necessity because it raises my blood pressure and causes me to have severe chest pain.

Anonymous said...

a lot of this confusion could be avoided if bloggers used words pertaining to matters of faith and doctrine in a way to avoid confusion. The phrase "Local Church" with a capital C on Church means Diocese. We might say "St Michael's Church" but we will say "are you a member of that church?" to mean a parish. If I wrote "are you a member of the Church?" I would clearly mean "The Catholic Church".

ps Anonymous at April 15 11:54 am, do you have other knowledge about Simon? Because simply saying someone "presents himself as an obnoxious, self-righteous prig" does not make Simon one.

Macmooski said...

I agree that there are priests out there that are new age, politically correct promoters of everything but the gospel....so leaving that kind of parish solves the individual's personal crisis, but does nothing for the good of the Church. The bigger problem is the saturation of everything by socialist doctrine and political correctness.... too many people are now catholics in name only, and either don't know or don't care what Church doctrine is, and comply only if it falls within their personal belief systems. The Good News is a stumbling block, just as predicted.

usually deleted said...

Powerful punditry! My opinion is made.

mundabor said...

"but Protestants leaving the Church did force the Church to clean up abuses and more clearly state Its case, as has always been true throughout the Church's history".

Protestants were heretics. They left the Church (with the capital C) because they did not want to follow her teaching.

Voris' case is exactly the opposite. In this case, faithful are invited to desert an heretical or pagan priest (means: leaving the local parish, not the Church) because they want.

I have put my two cents on the matter here: http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/michael-voris-is-spot-on-about-pagan-easter/

There's nothing there that has not been said here already, but frankly how the message could be misunderstood is beyond me.

It would be sometimes better to listen twice before writing once.

Mundabor

mundabor said...

"leaving that kind of parish solves the individual's personal crisis, but does nothing for the good of the Church".

It does, actually, a lot.
It gives a clear signal that heresy or neopaganism is not well accepted by the faithful in the pews. It shows the chap in question that his sheep are able to recognise a bad shepherd, and look for a good one. It makes clear to everyone that no one has the right to ask the faithful to play with their own salvation by willingly expose themselves (and their children) to - perhaps - decades of heretical bullshit.

For heaven's sake, if I enter a church and discover that I am listening to the homily of an Anglican I recognise that I am in the wrong church and go to the right one.

What's wrong with that.

And no, Voris hasn't said that the heretical priest does not effect a valid consecration.

Mundabor

Sue said...

I found the following on Renew America Site by Matt Abbot. He says he got this e-mail from a source inside Detroit's Archdiocese. That is where Michael Voris is, and may explain some of the hatred toward Michael Voris; http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/110408.
If even one of the things in the e-mail are true, Satan has truly infiltrated.

Anonymous said...

I very much appreciate Michael Voris and his work. I thank God he has the courage to go against the current and speak the truth. He has never said anything that is against faith, morals or church doctrine. He has upset the many in power who have protestantized Jesus' church with their own protests against Catholic teaching and liturgy.

I am not Spartacus said...

Mr. Kellmeyer has a spot-on response to the Voris Kerfuffle. He explains how apologists like Mr. Shea and Missus Graas have wildly missed the target

http://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-to-excommunicate-your-priest.html

matt d said...

According to Trent, the intention of the priest is vital in the confection of the Eucharist. If the liberal heretic priest does not intend to do what the Church does at Mass, then that Eucharist is not valid. With puppets and clowns, one would wonder what the intention was of some priests.

I am not Spartacus said...

There is also reason to question whether or not the Holy Water you used on the way in to actively participate in the new liturgy today was actually Holy Water (prolly not). And one also does wonder if the Palm Fronds one received at Mass in the New Liturgy have actually been Blessed: "Almighty God, we pray you bless + these branches and make them holy."

It was hard to tell in the Church I went to today what with all of the noise, protestant hymns (How Great Thou Art, Amasing Grace, and 2 or 3 songs I presume came from some local Christian Music Radio Station because they were both suffused with syrupy emotion and completely foreign to my ears) and the endless Pre-Mass reading of the Parish Bulletin and, the applause after the Sermon and after "How Great Thou Art."

It was a new liturgy at a local church which featured two screens placed high on a wall on each side of the Sanctuary. As the Lectrix read-out the endless notices, I whispered to my Wife, " Keep watching the Screen . I am quite sure there will be Previews of Coming Attractions for the Easter liturgy."

Compare that with the Blessings administered at the Traditional Mass.

Even Fr. Zuhlsdorf publicly admits he does not use the new 'Book of Blessings" because it is so deficient; he calls it "ghastly." And when was that Book of Blessings issued - in the 1980s, promulgated by The Pope we are about to Beatify.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/03/quaeritur-deacons-and-blessings-with-the-traditional-roman-ritual/

http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2011-0228-mjm-rite-of-exorcism.htm

At Mass and when receiving any Sacrament conferred by any Priest in any Traditional Order, one does not have to wonder about such things because those Traditional Orders employ the Traditional Sacraments and the Traditional Blessings and the Traditional Exorcisms, etc etc.

Until this permanent revolution,with its ceaseless changes, was imposed upon one and all by the Vatican Two Popes, only the insane questioned the validity and effectiveness of the Traditional Mass, Traditional Sacraments, Traditional Holy Orders, Traditional Blessings, etc

Many obvious questions about that revolution suggest themselves; including, was the desire to drive-out the Traditionalists in the Church part of the intent of the revolutionaries so as to concretise the revolution amongst the conservatives who would, with their knee-jerk papal loyalty, not only accept all of the novelties but go on the offensive to defend them against any criticism or opposition on the part of Traditionalists?

Sue said...

Spartacus, are we not supposed to have Papal loyalty? I think JPII was very Holy, but I don't think he knew the extent of what was going on here in America. We have a Pope because the office itself, not the man, but the office, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Vatican II was not evil, what was implemented, or twisted by some, now that could be. Are you saying we should not follow the Pope?

Anonymous said...

@Foxfier
"Worries me that the Anchoress is starting to refer to him so often."

I'm with you and have been worried too about the Anchoress referring too much to Shea. I haven't read Shea since his rant about evil, evil conservatives and how they all support torture and are all racists, funny how that coincided with the presidential election.

I transferred parish's the very week our pastor declared that Obama was wonderful and that pro-lifers needed to tone down their rhetoric and stop whining. I had children to think of and if that priest couldn't get his facts right after 37 years of the pro-life movement... heck! I guess I'll find out on Easter Sunday whether my new pastor worships the Creator or the Creation.

I am not Spartacus said...

Dear Sue. Trust but verify :) Do you think, say, that the Book of Blessings that Pope John Paul II approved was an error or not? Is Fr. Zuhlsdorf a disloyal Catholic for refusing to use it?

I believe that all Ecumenical Councils, by their nature, are infallible and the proof that The Holy Ghost was present at Vatican Two is the decision the Bishops took at the time to make it a Pastoral and not a Dogmatic Council that formulated and formalised Dogma and issued Canons and Decrees.

There were at least 80 Bishops who did not sign one or more of the Conciliar Documents yet they were allowed to leave The Council fully in Union with The Pope without having accepted them. Back in the day, such things never happened.

Cam said...

It's so great to see a post that says exactly what I thought when I first began reading about all this insanity. I'd watched the episode when it first came out and after watching it again, I still don't see where the responses are coming from. Thanks for a great post!

Mark P. Shea said...

"I haven't read Shea since his rant about evil, evil conservatives and how they all support torture and are all racists"

Care to document any of that? Or are you anonymous *because* you are a liar?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Shea, Mr. Voris, Mr. Madrid, Fr. Corapi, LifeSite, Catholic.com, Michael Flynn et al are all super. They and others have helped me in numerous ways over the years.
I appreciate Mark's humour and his ability to challenge my occasional redneck outlook of life.
Michael Voris appeals to my "battle cry" side as he often seems to speak the words that I'd like to speak whenever I hear a watered-down, feel-good, schlocky sermon instead of a good ol' fire and brimstone one.
These guys (and gals) fill a gap that would not be there if we had a lot of good, solid clergy. When and if that transpires, these fine bloggers/authors/priests will be without a job.

(I am anonymous because I cannot remember my password and am too lazy to make another account)

Anonymous said...

Michael Voris should say, "don't shoot me I'm just the messenger".

Mark Shea , it's about the message not the messenger. You really have revealed your heart in this matter. I have stopped giving to Catholic Answers and EWTN and have been giving to St. Michael's Media. I appears to me that these groups do not support Voris's message or he would have been a guest by now.

I am following the message(of truth)regardless of who the messenger may be!

If you have a problem with the message that Voris is delivering then criticize that with scholarly support.

Mark, you just showed your cards! Now stop playing cards and get on the bandwagon of truth.

John King

Mary said...

Hello,
What evidence do you have that global warming is a scam?

Anonymous said...

The Weather Channel founder John Coleman stated that Global warming is the greatest scam in history.

Also 31,487 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,029 with PhDs.

http://www.petitionproject.org/

This is pretty compelling evidence not including that my own eyes have yet to see any evidence supporting Global warming.

John King

Foxfier said...

A couple of years ago I threw together this batch of global warming fraud links, Watt's site is rather famous for showing the fraud, the removing of wrong predictions instead of the scientifically required incorporation , the general inability of the climate models to predict past weather from known inputs, and of course the amazing happenstance that the solutions are exactly the same as every other hyped reason to kill off the "unwanted" population and give power to those predicting the disaster.

Is there any evidence that it's not a fraud?

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