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Ron Paul Is An Idiot.

You know, every time we talk presidential politics on CMR, somebody will send us an email or write a comment about ALL Catholics should be supporting Ron Paul.

There are so many reasons why I could never, would never, support Ron Paul.

Here is reason #372. He blames the US for 9/11. Repeatedly. (Des Moines Register via Gateway)


Two weeks away from the tenth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, presidential candidate and Texas Rep. Ron Paul says that U.S. intervention in the Middle East is a main motivation behind terrorist hostilities toward America, and that Islam is not a threat to the nation.

At a campaign stop on Saturday in Winterset, one man asked Paul how terrorist groups would react if the U.S. removed its military presence in Middle Eastern nations, a move the candidate advocates.

“Which enemy are you worried that will attack our national security?” Paul asked.

“If you’re looking for specifics, I’m talking about Islam. Radical Islam,” the man answered.

“I don’t see Islam as our enemy,” Paul said. “I see that motivation is occupation and those who hate us and would like to kill us, they are motivated by our invasion of their land, the support of their dictators that they hate.”

Regarding 9/11, Paul said that attacks against the U.S. from Middle Eastern groups at home and abroad can be traced to the foreign presence of U.S. troops, as well as America’s relationships with dictator regimes.
America is certainly not sinless, don't get me wrong. But to blame America, for inciting 9/11 is so wrongheaded it is scary. Ron Paul is an Idiot.

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66 comments:

ThereWasADream said...

I'd have to say I'm almost mad at you for posting this. Ron Paul is right. The US backs up dictators OVER and OVER and OVER again and it ticks the world off! Radical Islam is just simply the only group with the intestinal fortitude to attack us BACK.

That said, Islam is only a threat to our faith, not to our nation. Our nation is a threat to itself because we keep doing whatever the bleep we want and it's making the wrong people mad.

Also, Ron Paul is a staunchly pro-life politician. Considering how absurdly rare that is, I'd say YOU sir, are the idiot.

Al said...

I think it's silly to say he's blaming America when he's saying we gave them motive. It's quite different to tie their motive to something we did than to blame us for their action. If I give you a motive to sin and you sin, you are still culpable and probably more so than I, but to ignore that I gave you the motive is silly.

I used to think like you that Ron Paul's ideas on foreign policy were naive at best and I realize it takes quite a change of mindset to understand that they have some merit. But these wars do not seem to be working anyway, i.e., we will never obliterate radical islam, and the fighting only seems to motivate them more.

Finally, won't it be easy to test Ron Paul's theory? If radical muslims still attack us after we get rid of our foreign presence.

Also, I think it's unhelpful to call him an idiot, unless you're trying to bait some of the crazy Ron Paul supporters.

Paul Ambro said...

blaming the US for 9/11 is like blaming a woman for getting raped because she wore a sexy dress

Steve Skojec said...

I'm with ThereWasADream here. The American Religion isn't a big fan of creating links of causality between our foreign policy and what comes back to bite us, but there are clear and unmistakable connections between our Middle East policy and the motivation of terrorists who wish to hurt us.

Groups like Al Qaeda have stated these motivations explicitly in the past. It's not a secret. You can question whether they're telling the truth, but Ron Paul isn't even connecting dots...he's just reiterating known facts.

Now where I disagree with him (and most conservatives, by the way) is in the idea that Islam doesn't have a beef with us per se. Islam is a religion with inextricable political inclinations, and their history of conquest and dhimmitude puts the terrorist a-holes more in line with Islamic orthodoxy than the enlightened, deconstructionism-loving Western world would care to admit.

But I would concede that they have far more appealing targets within their immediate proximity than the U.S. And if we got out of bed with the Saudis, who sit atop Islam's holiest shrine, and toned the export of our decadence down a wee tad, I think we'd drop on the list of priorities.

However you want to slice it, you don't attack the mightiest nation on earth in a way that ensures they will hunt you to the ends of the globe until there is nothing left unless you have a huge axe to grind. Our policies are extremely unpopular with Middle Eastern Muslims - particularly our support of the heavy handed Israelis - and I'd wager to say that with the displacement of ancient Catholic communities like the Chaldeans in Iraq after the invasion, or the oppression of the Palestinian Christians in the ongoing conflict there, we haven't made many friends of our Middle Eastern brothers in Christ, either.

Actions have consequences. We need to stop the overseas adventurism. The resentment that we face around the world is real, not just a liberal construct.

David L Alexander said...

Ron Paul isn't the only prominent conservative who has spoken out on America's interventionism of the last century. Pat Buchanan, himself a very devout Catholic, is yet another.

The founders of our nation never intended for the United States to become embroiled in the affairs of other nations. And it is no secret that we have engaged our forces in areas where our nation's security was not under imminent threat. What's more, many Americans forget that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were once beneficiaries of American aid; the former when in conflict with Iran, the latter when Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviets.

We have taken on an unprecedented debt, and continue to borrow from nations who do not share our political philosophy. (That would be China.) The bulk of the nation's budget goes to two things; entitlement programs (Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security) and defense. I have yet to hear a candidate tell me how we will continue to afford both at the current level of spending. Ron Paul doesn't think we can.

That doesn't make him an idiot.

David L Alexander said...

And while we're at it, my friend Steve Skojec is right about Islam. So was Hillaire Belloc.

Amy Giglio said...

Paul's comments don't blame us for 9/11. As some of the other commenters have said, our presence in their countries provoked the attacks. It's not equivalent to saying a woman provoked rape by wearing a sexy dress at all. I find that comparison highly offensive. It's more like a houseguest who's supposed to stay for a few days not leaving your house for a year. He gets mad when you try and get him to leave. And then he's shocked when you get so mad you punch him in the face.

Pedro Erik said...

Ron Paul is really a complete idiot. Islam is not just a religion, but an ideology and a political system.

Who says that Islam is a threat only to other faiths does not understand Islam, and is stupid, because there are so many facts and it is all written in Coran and many hadith.

colleen@inadequate disciple said...

Agree with others that Paul talks motive not blame. I think Paul would be awesome domestically for getting us away from the fed and back to a silver or gold standard. FP-wise he doesn't seem to care about Israel. I'm Catholic but I've seen too many 700 Club News segments to be able to accept us letting Israel stand alone against her violent neighbors.

Anonymous said...

I honestly don't understand how one can disagree with Ron Paul on this issue. Recent US Middle East strategy has consisted of three approaches: We prop up some dictatorial regimes, pressure others, actively attack others. All the while yakking about how much liberty and democracy are always great. We act like a obnoxious frat boy intruding on a family reunion (albeit certainly one with its own issues).

I think we should say, if you value these things, great. If you can't implement them in your own country, come to ours and make it better. Otherwise, we'll just provide some support for aid and other non-military humanitarian issues.

Anonymous said...

"Ron Paul is an idiot"

MATTHEW 5:22

Dingo said...

YEEEES! you finally said it!

Ron Paul IS an idiot! And COMPLETELY utterly wrong about legalizing hard core drugs and as well! Where is he on legalizing prostitution people?! These positions are NOT in line with the teachings of the Church in ANY way.

Folks that don't understand how long Islam has been a threat to all KAFIRS don't understand Islam!

Folks who don't understand that our interests ARE overseas and must be protected overseas don't understand the world.

OHHH and SO MUCH MORE that he is an utter fool about.... The list is nearly endless. And it is impossible to debate Paulbots on these issues, because they tend to possess a unique combination of shallow depth of knowledge of history, hyper-focus on unrelated minutia and generous amounts of inability to listen to something that isn't a conspiracy.

(Too bad, that he is correct on the economy in large measure)

A little bit of knowledge IS a dangerous thing. It's too bad, so many un-formed otherwise smart people support this guy.

Ron Paul will lead us to nuclear war - because that will be the only way we have left to defend ourselves. (Shudder)

Thank God he has no chance.

Thank you, Patrick for the brave post. You will surely now be disemboweled by the Paulbots....

Anonymous said...

I only half-way agree with you. Yes, Islam is a threat to the US, but only because we and the Europeans have allowed mass migration from Muslim countries to our lands. Get rid of these Muzzies and 80% of the threat is gone. Flattening with Mecca, Medina, and Ridydh with some a-bombs will take care of the rest. Scotju

Anonymous said...

I like this take on Ron Paul.

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2011/08/25/the-ron-paul-story/

JOB

Kevin Davis said...

Patrick,

You dropped the ball on this post. Ron Paul is absolutely right. He's simply giving an observational assessment of why these groups hate us and have attacked us. It's hard to imagine anyone disagreeing with Paul on this one.

Suzanne said...

THANK YOU!!!! For the love! The whole Ron Paul thing is truly irritating me -- no, more than irritating -- it makes me ANGRY. Yes, blaming the US for 9/11, legalizing hardcore drugs and prostitution. The man is NOT the Catholic choice. Anybody hear of Rick Santorum? An ACTUAL Catholic (Latin Mass attendee, for those who care). Can't we get behind him? Sheesh, people.

Matthew A. Siekierski said...

Do you Paul supporters really think Islamic extremists need a reason to attack us? They can come up with hundreds of reasons to hate us. And, yes, they all can be summed up as "foreign policy", since doing anything outside our own borders is "foreign policy".

They're extremists. Their reactions are, by definition, extreme. To pick one thing (or a couple of things) and say "this is what provoked them" is ridiculous. Extremists are easily provoked, with reaction outside what would be considered "reasonable".

They are a danger because they are extremists, not because they are Muslims. They are a danger because they overreact to the slightest thing, and the primary reaction is to attack.

The root cause is not our foreign policy. And anyone who blames our foreign policy for the attacks on 9/11 is an idiot.

Saint Michael Come To Our Defense said...

Ronald Reagan funded the birth of the Taliban, and the Pakistani ISI to the tune of about 100 Billion Dollars.

Osama Bin Laden was part of the core group Reagan, as figurehead, funded.

Some former U.S. Catholic Seminary buildings are now owned by groups that are America's enemies; they are using them to infrastructure more of what is to come.

They are no longer 'over there'.

They have converted America from a somewhat Christian Nation to a Muslim, Buddhist enclave.

If you don't fit, they will simply kill you, as they do elsewhere.

Ron Paul is an idiot.

But so are we.

911 was an inside job.

*

Sue said...

I have to say, I am so glad you posted this. I have a ton of friends who are voting for him. I have always thought his policies on foreign affairs were dangerous. We were not in Afghanistan or Iraq on 9/11/01 and our presence in Saudi Arabia was minimal. The Taliban "couldn't send missles and didn't have enough gas to even do that" (sound familiar) - but they killed 3,000 people on our soil in 90 minutes. Iran has deployed its Navy in the Gulf of Aden, the Red Sea, and through the Suez Canal to the eastern Mediterranean. They have stated they want to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth. I also cannot wrap my head around the fact that he would not have gone after Bin Laden because we should have let Pakistan handle it. (which is a country that just showed our downed helicopter to the Chinese). He said something like, "what if Bin Laden had been in London?" Well that is just a ludicrious comparison b/c British gov would have gotten him & not let him lived there for years and years. I also take issue with the isolationist approach. He says he is not an isolationist because he favors free trade, but to me that just makes him a non-protectionist, but still an isolationist. In the past when America has tried to be non-interventionist (or isolationist) we have always been brought into other countries entaglements. Did the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor teach us nothing? He also wants civilian courts to try terrorists who have committed war crimes. Again, I don't get that, they have no allegience to the US and do not have protection under our constitution. Just because they don't wear uniforms or call each other comarade does not mean they are not war criminals who should not be tried in military court. Finally I think he would be crucified in a General election for his racist newsletters (he denies them now, but did not in 96 and 01) His own former aide Eric Dondero describes him, as not a Libertarian, but a "sort of POPULIST LEFTWINGER " who “Since 9/11 Paul has become a complete nutcase conspiratorialist quasi-Anti-Semitic leftwing American-hating nutball.” Anyway, I crossed him off my list a long time ago. He would lose against Obama because middle of the road people can't see abolishing the Fed or Dept. of Education etc... (even though I kind of agree with that). Polls now show him close, but after the media crucifies him he would lose.

Anonymous said...

"anyone who blames our foreign policy for the attacks on 9/11 is an idiot."

I certainly don't think that our foreign policy is the only thing that led to these attacks. Islamic extremists and those that support them shoulder the most blame. However, its not like we were strolling down the lane, minding our own business, when we got stung by a bee.

Its our own fault, insofar as we fail to understand Islam (which Ron Paul won't help with, but which candidate will?), and we fail to understand ourselves. We can't just willy nilly go talking about how democracy is the greatest thing ever, while at the same time supporting anti-democratic despots.
-chris

Paul H said...

I don't agree 100% with Ron Paul's comments here, but I don't disagree 100% either. And I still prefer him to most of the other Republican candidates, for many reasons. I think that Steve Skojec and David Alexander make some good points.

August said...

That isn't idiocy, it is a brief history.
Idiocy is voting at all, since you'll get worse than Ron Paul- you'll get empty suits saying sound bites that have been pre-tested to work on brain dead, TV audiences. Idiocy is not recognizing Osama bin Laden's desire for the Middle East is closer than ever to being realized, while American foreign policy gets more violent and more desperate. The Arab states are very likely to become a pan-arab nation, and while I doubt the viability of an outright Caliphate (because most Muslims seem to want some sort of Democratic Socialism) I certainly think it is far more likely than the State Department's attempts at co-opting what they like to call the 'arab spring.' Can anyone not be dense enough to see Mubarak (Gaddafi, Hussien, whoever is in charge of Pakistan) is our guy? We are either fighting our own guys, or desperately throwing around money to manipulate the people who just overthrew our guys.
American Catholic political commentary is downright sad. From a political standpoint it is like we are just happy with ourselves- being against abortion is enough for instance, rather than actually stopping it. And support of these wars betrays a willingness to be on Team America rather than to seriously consider Catholic teaching. There seems to be an unfathomable reasonableness which leads to voting for the Republican brand of empty suit. The triumphalism of the middle class mindset never ceases, even as evidence suggest riots and unrest will come to your stronghold too. Even if you cannot agree with Ron Paul, you should a least accord him some respect for honesty rather than mouthing crap he doesn't believe in to get your vote.

Donald R. McClarey said...

Bravo Patrick! Ron Paul is an idiot and many of his supporters remind me of a cult. Prior to him deciding to play footsie with the "9-11 was an inside job" crazies, his immediate response to the 9-11 attacks was to call for the President to issue letters of marque and reprisal so that we could send private cititens after the terrorists. Ron Paul, like most true ideologues, lives in a world that he has constructed in his mind, and it only bears a passing resemblance to the world that the rest of us inhabit.

colleen@inadequate disciple said...

For the Matthew 5:22 reference: not sure Idiot = "You fool", but I didn't check the Greek. I think Idiot implies mental deficiency and Fool implies silly and stupid, and generally lacking in wisdom. I guess they are similar but geez quoting the Lord warning of hell - pretty strong pushback!

I like Santorum too, but not sure he has enough charisma/star power to pull it off. Somehow Bachmann, Palin, Romney, Paul, Perry, and Gingrich (by his abrasive comments to get air time and viral internet time) are going to pull away. Pawlenty was awful attacking Bachmann. It is one thing to get results as a Governor, it is another to struggle in a corrupt, Democratic controlled and manipulated Congress.

Dingo said...

@ Donald...

"Ron Paul, like most true ideologues, lives in a world that he has constructed in his mind, and it only bears a passing resemblance to the world that the rest of us inhabit. "

This is probably the most spot-on observation I've seen about Ron Paul and the Paulbots. In fact, the way of thinking is dangerous, and short sighted, and, just plain ignorant.

When you live in your own world you can rail on and on about all kinds of things without having to be accurate. What is sad, is that ignorance is that same reason people voted for Obama.

Worst yet, a combination of ignorance and vociferousness along with a dose of denial are the perfect ingredients for a cult.

Ron Paul, his Paulbots and isolationists and libertarians in general, espouse views with are counter to Church teaching at a minimum. These views would legalized hard core drugs and prostitution, leave the US defenseless against our adversaries, unable to protect our friends or protect our vital economic interests and ultimately lead us to nuclear war. Other than that he's great! Really!

Thom, SFO said...

He's absolutely right.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Ron Paul is an idiot to try to explain the truth to people like the Catholic Neocons. He should be braying for Mooslum blood, murder them before they come here and get us! Eeek! After all, sending off young people to die is SO much nobler than butchering them in the womb. What an idiot to singlehandedly be opening the eyes of people to the swindle of the Fed, which the bloodthirsty and economically ignorant Catholic Neocons have NO problem with because, well, hey, how else would we fund innumerable holy wars and get all that Mooslum blood and send off young Americans to die Gloriously for the Nation-State! Live by the Sword! Ron Paul is an idiot! You, sir, are not fit to wipe the shoes of Ron Paul! I'm starting to wonder if this site isn't a CIA front, like Buckleys mag. Ugh.

David L Alexander said...

"The root cause is not our foreign policy. And anyone who blames our foreign policy for the attacks on 9/11 is an idiot."

... who reads and learns from history, as well as the extremist agenda that is central to Islamism, if not Islam itself. This would make someone who does NOT read or learn from history, or does NOT learn from the history of Islam ...

Meg said...

Wow! The conspiracy theories always seem to pop up on posts about Ron Paul...wonder why??? Anyone and I mean ANYONE who thinks 9/11 was an inside job IS an idiot, at the very best, IMHO.

Anonymous said...

What this article shows and what a lot of viewers forget is that when it comes to the constitution and the founding fathers Dr Paul is correct. Also please remember that as a ob-gyn he was the ONLY Republican Candidate to attend the 2008 Pro-Life March in Washington DC. Also please keep in mind he served in Vietnam in the 1960's and had the friendship of Ronald Reagan. Also he won every single debate back in 2008. He does not believe 9-11 was an inside job, and he tells the truth which a lot of people do not want to hear. He is the only candidate who can beat Obama according to the polls. Either you put America first or you don't

Anonymous said...

Ron Paul is the litmus test. How people talk about and react to this good, truthful and principled man says much more about THEM than HIM. He is such a scary radical to want a return to Constitutional law. What a nut. If only he had worked as a prosecutor for the IRS and lied about being a Dr. If only he had forced a dangerous vaccine on 6th grade girls and tried to shove through the Nafta Superhighway. If only he had bombed a third world country that did nothing to us to secure oil for private companies. If only he lied about his residence to fleece taxpayers of his congressional district.He is obviously not "presidential" enough like the rest of the Republican "top tier".
Thank God for learned and principled Catholics like Thomas Woods and Lew Rockwell.

Anonymous said...

It doesn't help to be principled if a good 60% of the time your principles are wrong. Sorry, but Ron Paul is completely bat guano crazy when it comes to economics.

Brian Vree said...

Our Pope said to not invade Iraq. We did anyway and thousands of Catholics have been killed or fled. We invaded Libya when the bishop of Libya said not to. Now the rebels have released 600+ Al-Quaeda terrorists. On this issue, Ron Paul is right.

Anonymous said...

"Ron Paul is an idiot".......and you're an ass.

Austin said...

"You reap what you sow" and "blessed are the peacemakers" but I guess those are idiotic statement. Nothing that America's military has done over there fits just war doctrine. Ron Paul is an honest man and at least you know where he stands. What other candidate can you say that about? He is the only anti-war candidate and he is pro-life when it comes to federal policy. It's sad that name calling is all that people turn too because they don't want to face his real arguments. I have lost a lot of respect for Creative Minority Reports due to this post.

Big Tex said...

lol... did you need some additional traffic?

Anonymous said...

How very odd that a man who is
"bat guano crazy" on economics has been correct on every economic prediction he has made, from the housing bubble to the Feds antics. Go figure. He also receives more campaign contributions from active military than all the other Repubs combined. But what do those dumb soldiers know?

Anonymous said...

Let's not forget that it was the dirty Saudis who begged us to save their rear ends from Sadaam in the first gulf war. They couldnt protect themselves or their oil fields. So we went and thereby, in the eyes of the wahabbis, defiled the so-called ' holy land' of islam. Paul is right to some extent but islam is what it has always been, a false religion bent on world domination.

Matthew A. Siekierski said...

I find it amusing that so many principled Paul supporters only want to comment anonymously. And seem to think that those opposed to Paul are either dumb or corrupt.

David L. Alexander, look at history. Extremists of any stripe merely find a rationale for the violence they already want to commit. It frequently is a religious reason, since "God commands I do this" is a powerful motivating factor. To pick any one thing and label it as THE REASON is ludicrous.

People don't fly airplanes into buildings because of another country's foreign policy. It's too indistinct a reason. Specific parts may be the justification they used, but it's not the reason.

While Ron Paul is right on some things, he is oh so wrong on others.

geronimo said...

Some facts for some people:
The Catholic Church and the United States of America are not equivalent.
The Republican Party is not the Catholic Church.
Americanism is a heresy.

Anonymous said...

Man, I was just starting to really like your site. I do not understand people like you who get so fired up over Ron Paul. I don't love the guy, but I see where he's coming from, and I get really bothered by people who just yell IDIOT rather than actually responding to what he says. In the article you reference, as others have mentioned, he's talking motivation and in a sense he's blaming our crappy foreign policy. This is what is so infuriating? Lots of candidates disagree with our current foreign policy. Why do you people act like he doesn't even deserve an actual response? He doesn't like our current foreign policy. He offers a legitimate criticism. I don't understand why people get so defensive about this. Also, Rick Santorum may be a Latin Mass Catholic, he has zero chance of winning a general election. This MUST be a consideration, it must. Ron Paul has a better shot, honestly, and his is not good. Economically and domestically, RP would do good things. The so-called crazier parts of his wish list - legalizing drugs, etc - may not be your cup of tea but (a) he makes IMO practical, thought-provoking arguments, ie the money down the drain over our current largely ineffective drug policies, and (b) any rational person should be able to recognize that he won't get a lot of them past Congress anyways. So, maybe he's not the ideal, but he seems like a good man, he's pro-life, he genuinely cares for this country and the values most of us claim to hold. I do not understand why people, especially Catholics, feel like it's okay to say nasty things about him.

Anonymous said...

geronimo - another Paulbot. Aren't you a Canadian anyway?

Dingo said...

@ Austin:
Everything that the US military has done DOES fit with just war theory. You are smearing an awful lot of people.

(With the exception of what those few idiots did at Abu Graib, which was utterly contrary to the UCMJ, their training, and was punished, aberrant behavior. The rest of what our troops have done has been exemplary.)

The US had every right and just reason to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. These wars were authorized legally under international law as well, and have been prosecuted with all due care.

Even if you disagree, you still need to tell me how legalizing prostitution and hard core drugs is going to make this a more Christian nation. It won't. Not only is Paul ignorant about our enemies, his views will bring us to greater moral decay at home and LARGER MORE DEADLY WARS LATER.

This IS idiotic because one must suspend common sense, all sense of history and basic knowledge of right and wrong to hold these positions. AND one must also believe in conspiracy theories, instead of the truth, to hold his world view. In other words - turn off your brain and believe what's easy to believe instead of what is fact.

It's also hilarious for others to suggest that this guy "has a chance"? Are you kidding? On what planet? Again, it is more of this suspension of reality stuff.

jhynds said...

"When a society is perishing, the wholesome advice to give to those who would restore it is to call it to the principles from which it sprang; for the purpose and perfection of an association is to aim at and to attain that for which it is formed, and its efforts should be put in motion and inspired by the end and object which originally gave it being. Hence, to fall away from its primal constitution implies disease; to go back to it, recovery...."

RERUM NOVARUM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
May 15 1891
----------------------------------
To Pope Leo XIIIs point, our society is perishing and this country has strayed far from our Founders intent. I believe that RP is the only candidate that understands our Constitution and the intent of our Founding Fathers. This country needs a "Reset Button", NOW & that "Reset Button" is Ron Paul.

Fr Bill Peckman said...

Were the disciples of Jesus Christ as singularly devoted apologists as the disciples of politicians, commentators, pundits, silly silly entertainers and pro athletes!

geronimo said...

Anonymous said...
geronimo - another Paulbot. Aren't you a Canadian anyway?

No, I'm a Catholic. How about you?

geronimo said...

Dingo - Wrong. Pre-emptive war is not part of the "Just War" teaching of the Catholic Church. Read the Catechism and go through the required steps for a war to be considered "just". The wars of the American Empire do not make the grade. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Americanism is a heresy.

Dingo said...

@ geronimo:
I think you just demonstrated that you do "live in your own world", one without a country. Where is that? Maybe outer space? This fulfills a prerequisite for putting your "faith" into a errant man like Ron Paul: first suspend all sense of reality.

Next you will be saying that caring for and about one's country is not Catholic either.

jhynds, above, is correct when he talks about this country straying far from the intent of our founding fathers. But R.P. is not the answer.

To answer your question: yes, I am a Catholic. And I am also someone who believes that I have a duty to my country - to do my part to help it be as good as country as possible, so that what it stands for and its influence in the world are all only for the cause of that which is good.

Call this "Americanism" if you will. So be it. Excellent. And then call me an AMERICAN. And I am happy to be one. And my duty to The Lord means that I am obliged to care for my neighbor, my community, my country and the world. So while I was blessed to be born here I will live my life trying in my little way to make this a better, more just, more loving nation. (You may want to try that with your own country as well - if you have one.)

This requires that I not support Ron Paul, whose policies would lead to more and larger wars and to further moral decay.

So, while I may salute my flag, I bow ONLY to God! (unless I am in Japan, and then I make a "little" head nod to those nice folks as well. ...But I don't worship them.)

It is my devotion to Him alone that moves me to passionately seek what is best for my nation and the world with which it interacts.

As a Catholic, I support an end to abortion not a RP-style-constitutionalist's, "let the states decide" approach. BUNK! But as a constitutionalist myself I also recognize the value of the federalist system.

My Catholicism is one reason why I could not support R.P. and his policies promoting moral decrepitude. We have enough of that already. We need a strong country morally, spiritually and with a strong enough defense to maintain PEACE.

@Fr. Bill Pekman:
You are correct, of course, yet, the matter of who leads the US is very important stuff. No? Life and death and all that. But, yes, of course, we should all be as (MORE) devoted to Christ. In the end, we must put our faith only in Him.

Dingo said...

@geronimo:
"Pre-emptive war is not part of the "Just War" teaching of the Catholic Church."

You misunderstand both the nature of the wars themselves and the meaning of the theory. As many do. Just War theory is about a county's right to defend itself. The continuation of the Gulf War in Iraq was an act of self-defense.

The notion of "pre-emption" implies that the threat does not rise to the level explained in St. Augustine's theory and the teaching of The Church. However, this was not the case with the grave threat Iraq posed and the continuation of the war which began in 1991.

Naturally, this will be argued ad infinitem. Meanwhile, Ron Paul's positions are still idiotic and contrary Catholic teaching.

geronimo said...

OK, Dingo.

Go ahead and continue to fight for the American Empire and help spread its errors throughout the world. Make the world safe for child-killing and homosexual marriage, along with a nice dose of greed and arrogance thrown in for good measure. That's what you are defending, whether you like it or not.

Just don't try to equate that evil Empire with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church will still be around when your Empire is in the dustbin of history, like all empires before it.

Dingo said...

OK. It seems that Ron Paul isn't the only idiot around. Good grief.

What is YOUR country doing for "homosexual marriage" and "child killing", greed and so on? Oh that's right you live on your own planet.

I will continue to fight to correct any and all errors of my country and vote to support those who will work to end abortion, prevent wars and so on.

You should be glad, and you may want to be careful up there on your high horse; there's apparently not much oxygen up there.

You are right about one thing. In the end, the only Kingdom left will be THE Kingdom of God. Meanwhile, this sinner will just be working to make his country better. Go on and continue to be a hater.

geronimo said...

That's right - since you have no logical argument, just call people names. That will win the day.

geronimo said...

Dingo said - "I will continue to fight to correct any and all errors of my country and vote to support those who will work to end abortion, prevent wars and so on."

Sounds like you're becoming a Ron Paul supporter to me!

Dingo said...

Just calling it like I see it. Your hatred for the US is as palpable as it is stupid.

Dingo said...

@geronimo
"Sounds like you're becoming a Ron Paul supporter to me!"

About that "sound". You are the only one hearing it. Ron Paul's policies would lead to greater destruction and moral decay.

Maybe out there in "backwards world" destruction and decrepitude are a good thing. In the real world, the actual world, R.P. policies are a BAD thing. (Hard core drugs and prostitution - HOORAY!)

P.S.: Your Paulbot/hate America button is stuck. You may want to go wash it or something.
P.P.S: NO ONE cares about this thread anymore.

geronimo said...

Your name-calling button is stuck - try to discuss things without calling names.

Dingo said...

@geronimo

Frankly I don't care. I am tired of reading your posts SMEARING an entire NATION of people!

So try these names on for size: Hypocrite and bully. They both fit you.

Your America-phobic diatribes against anyone who would support the United States and has a different view than your own are disgusting and insulting. You basically called some other poster a baby-killer. And you have the nerve to whine about "name calling"? Maybe you haven't actually READ any of your own posts. (All very charitable and loving. You pose yourself as a paladin of justice riding on a white horse meanwhile accusing a WHOLE COUNTRY of greed and arrogance! Nice.)

BTW, I laid out plenty of points for discussion. Let's face it, you can't handle someone disagreeing with you without just spitting out the same hackneyed garbage like an automaton and attacking an entire country of people.

So, Mr. Catholic, (SHOCK another name!) you may want to ponder whether or not you may have a tiny little something to do with the tone of the discussion.

geronimo said...

And where did I call another poster a "baby-killer"? Show me exactly where I did that. You can't.

There you go again - calling names instead of discussing the issues.

Breathe in, Dingo, and calm down. Your attitude is how wars get started.

By the way, here is the official Church teaching on Just War. See if your favorite wars make the grade.

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

Dingo said...

Heck - you just called the whole COUNTRY a baby-killing nation by suggesting that those who support the country "fight for the American Empire and help spread its errors throughout the world. Make the world safe for child-killing and homosexual marriage". OK, so any American who doesn't agree with you is a fighting to make the world safe for baby-killing. But I can't show you where you call someone that?

Again - maybe you should read your own works of charity here. These lovely posts of yours.

And, no, that's not an insult to a whole country.

When you refer to the USA as an "Evil Empire" you are not at all implying that the American PEOPLE have anything to do with that, right?

Interesting how you have suddenly changed the subject away from your vacuous hatred of American and your vicious, vile posts and now switch back to arguing the merits of the Iraq War. that's been done already ad nauseum.

There you go again with, "Favorite Wars" comment. Has anyone punched you in the face lately? Your mom, the waiter, anyone? I am just wondering, not calling you a name or anything like that. But it occurs to me that you may not get along well with others in general.

But to humor you:
As I stated in an earlier post: I am well aware of Just War theory, thank you very much, and yes the Gulf War and the continuation of it in the invasion of Iraq as well as the war in Afghanistan fulfill ALL the criteria for a JUST war.

Meanwhile, geronimo, this was ABOUT RON PAUL who's wars would be BIGGER. The Iraq war is NOT RELEVANT.

geronimo said...

Let me try to reason with you Dingo.

There are good people in every nation. The U.S.A., for all its evil that it spreads throughout the world, also has good individual people in it. It also has a lot of evil-doers and a lot of people(the majority), who just go along with whatever. So too does every nation. When I call the Empire evil I am calling it for the evil that it does - spreading its evil ways of child-killing and sexual perversion and war throughout the world. It's the most powerful country on earth and has an enormous influence on the entire culture of the world. And that influence is not good. It is not Catholic. And again, that does not mean that every single individual American is evil; likewise, not every German in 1943 was evil. But the majority just went along - they did what everyone else was doing - you must support your country - even bishops and priests said to support the Fatherland. And that was wrong. A solitary Austrian man, Franz Jaegerstaetter, did not go along. Priest and bishop tried to convince him to "support his country". Now, he has been beatified and is on the way to canonization. So, who did the right thing? Those who supported the government no matter what evil it did, or those that defied the government and are now considered saints by the Catholic Church?

Nationalism is not patriotism. A true patriot stands up and declares the truth. Nationalism is a heresy - it was a heresy in 1943 and it is a heresy today. It is not Catholic.

Anonymous said...

Horrible post. You really blew it on this one. And I'm not saying that because I'm an avid Ron Paul supporter. I'm saying it because you are clearly so blinded by a conservative mentality that supports endless wars (that we can't afford by the way) that you can't see the truth.

Do you really believe that we can be fighting wars and establishing a military presence in all of these nations and not incite at least resentment against our own? What if China had a military presence in our nation? What if they expelled our validly elected President and set up the President of their choice (though under Obama I might be in favor of this proposition...)? How do you think we'd feel?

You ever call anyone an idiot again, and I will stop reading.

Good day, sir.

Anonymous said...

I think the author of this post should have to make a public retraction.

CP said...

This is an embarrassing post by the author of this blog. I usually am in step with nearly everything that is said hear- but this is absurd.

1) In all things - Charity. Calling someone an "Idiot" is not civil discourse. Deconstructing their positions is.

2) Mr. Paul's foreign policy positions supports a certain school of thought called non-interventionism. One of the tenets of this is to avoid a consequence of interventionism, which is, something called "blowback". Blowback is what Mr. Paul would say 9/11, Embassy bombings, was, due to the result of US Interventionism in the Middle East for many years.

It actually does make sense. It may not be a realistic foreign policy per say, but to call someone an idiot is not appropriate in discussing policies, nor is it Christian.

Anonymous said...

The problem with always expressing your opinion (and having people read it on a regular basis) is that you think your opinion is always right. I think the author of this post has fallen victim to that particular kind of hubris that leads him to believe that he can say whatever he wants without actually debating the merits of a man's policy. It's a forgivable offense, because I think he was just getting carried away and did not intend harm (he was probably actually responding to a very real challenge to his views by the ones who have sent him emails, whom he mentioned in his post). But he ought to apologize none the less and retract his statements, even if only to reformulate them in a manner more suiting a mature, adult, public person who expresses his views for the BENEFIT of others, and not for their scandal.

Whoever wrote this article ought to retract this article, apologize, and, if he sees fit, reformulate his ideas to be discussed in a more appropriate and Christian way. Otherwise, he stands to lose a lot of readers, not to mention credibility.

Anonymous said...

God, most of YOU are the IDIOTS. Stating "facts" without extensive knowledge makes you look like an idiot. YOUR opinions are not true, and neither are "facts" that you get from biased sources such as most of the main-stream media. Ron Paul DOES NOT want to legalize hard-core drug use. He wants to decentralize the government and give the power to the states. If a STATE wants to legalize a drug, that's the state's decision. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE WANTS DRUGS LEGALIZED! Why can't you idiots get this through your heads?

The same on his stand for foreign policy. He says we should not be BOMBING other countries, or sending ECONOMIC HITMEN to enslave them through loans for their resources, and if they fight back send American troops to pay with their lives so the rich get richer...This does not MEAN that he wants us to get attacked by ISLAM you morons!

Wow...25% of the problem with politics is politicians. The other 75% is the ignorant, uninformed, and BRAINWASHED IDIOTS like the majority today that don't check facts, don't do research, and worst of all, take someone else's CONCLUSION as their own without proper logical filtering...

You WANT FREEDOM, THEN FIGHT FOR IT.

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
-- Benjamin Franklin

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Anonymous said...

Articles like this and many of the responses they receive always drive home how popular this site is for neo-cons. Might as well break out a bottle and celebrate right now over the next, yet another neo-con candidate the Repubs will undoubtedly put forward as always due to attitudes like many of these.

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