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Dying Lutheranism WantsTo Kill Catholic Church

Lutheranism is dead, or at least soon will be and it wants to take the Catholic Church with it.

Herbert W. Chilstrom is former presiding bishop of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Chilstrom has written an open letter to the Bishops of Minnesota asking them to accept gay 'marriage' becuase gays are like blacks or something.

May I share a word with all of you who now lead the Roman Catholic community of faith in Minnesota?

First, I would go to the wall to defend your right to work for the adoption of the so-called marriage protection amendment. Having said that, I must tell you that I believe you are making a significant mistake.

Over my 35 years as an active and retired bishop I have come to know hundreds of gay and lesbian persons. I have yet to meet even one who is opposed to the marriage of one man and one woman. After all, they are the daughters and sons of such unions.

What they cannot understand is why church leaders would oppose their fundamental desire and right to be in partnership with someone they love and respect who happens to be of the same gender and sexual orientation. They don't understand why they should not enjoy all the rights and privileges their straight counterparts take for granted.

More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters.

In our generation homosexual persons are subject to the same discrimination. Their detractors often use the Bible and tradition as weapons of choice.

What strikes me about this letter is how utterly juvenile it is in its thinking and how insulting it is to the Catholic position.

Chilstrom challenges the Bishops to "Let me put out a challenge to each of you brothers. Invite 15 gay and lesbian persons from your respective areas, one at a time, to spend two hours with you."

In Chilstrom's mind, the problem is that we don't know and therefore don't like gay people. If we just got to know them, then all these problems would go away. How utterly juvenile. We know them, we love them, that is why we can never support this behavior becuase it destroys them body and soul.

It is no wonder that Lutheranism is dying a milquetoast death.

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Used to post said...

"It is no wonder that Lutheranism is dying a milquetoast death."

Which is one of the WORST ways to die.

I admit that I wasn't even able to read the letter - the description was enough. Does he really expect anyone to take him seriously?

Basil said...

They do not understand why Church leaders are opposed to "gay marriage" / How about because it is a sin!

Micah said...

"More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters."

That's kind of a weak argument, given that the Catholic Church has always been against racism, and never believed it was justified by the Bible. Is he really trying to equate Catholics with racists? All I see in his argument is that the Church was right about racism and what the Bible said about it, so I'm sure the Church is right about this, too.

Patrick said...

This is the way Lutheranism ends
Not with a bang but a whimper

Anonymous said...

Has this Lutheran gentleman considered the risk to the actual humans he describes?

What kind of Bishop ignores this?

Dad29 said...

ELCA is the Left-o-Wacky branch.

You won't get that piddleswap from a Missouri Lutherean.

CS said...

The ELCA isn't all there is to Lutheranism. I suspect the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod would not be on board with this.

Used to post said...

After reading this I think we should agree:

Let's all use the word "piddleswap" at least once this weekend.


The Watcher said...

So because one sub-denomination of Lutheranism (and a sub-denomination which has been roundly denounced by the LCMS, the WELS, the NALC and other more conservative Lutheran sub-denominations) has lost it's scriptural anchors and is hell-bent (no pun) on self-destruction, ALL of Lutheranism is dying?


Anonymous said...

Is it too crass to bring up hardware and plumbing as a very logical way to look at this issue? The male and female parts need each other to work together. Screws and bolts. Pipes and fittings. Two males or two females will not work.

Or magnets. You can try to force together the north ends of the magnet, but they will not stick.

Ditto for batteries. You cannot expect your electronics to work if you've got the negatives and positives mixed up.

I don't know why people come down so hard on the Church. I could find countless Darwinist, atheistic reasons why homosexuality just does not make sense. No matter how someone "feels." Wah, wah, I FEEL that I should be able to pop the duracells into the flashlight in the way that makes me most happy . . . but that doesn't mean it is right.

George @ Convert Journal said...

I immediately realized that I was no longer Lutheran after the infamous ELCA convention in August 2009. I had been a cradle Lutheran, from a Lutheran family, for 56 years. Catholic now since February 7, 2010.

Dad29 is correct. Lutheranism is split between progressive / orthodox as are most Protestant denominations. FWIW, I wrote about the situation in a piece I called the Protestantism trainwreck.

Warren Anderson said...

All the relativistic notions, which is to say misguided and deadly notions, about marriage, sexuality, life and authority can be laid at the feet of one, Martin Luther, who made it possible for each individual to champion his own magisterium in opposition to the Magisterium that God established. False doctrines such as sola scriptura have had the effect of establishing the errant notion that somehow all opinions are equal, and that truth is "relative". Sadly, all Luther's children are reaping the disaster sowed, perhaps unintentionally at first, by Luther himself. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church is perhaps the only international body capable of promoting what God intends for marriage and is being lambasted for doing so.

If Mr. Chilstrom, the "I-Know-Better-Than-You" crowd and Lutheranism represent anything it is not a reformation of Christ's church, but a deformation of the Church and the disastrous consequence of having seriously undermined a pillar of western civilization, i.e., lifelong, faithful marriage between one man and one woman ordered to the raising of children.

Anonymous said...

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Thank you,

Anonymous said...

How timely an article this is.i am in a n exchange with a group of "Freethinkers" who are so vehemently anti-Catholic because of the Church's opposition to homosexual marriages. The argument goes this way:
The LGBT's are oppressed and bullied
The oppression and bullying are a result of discrimination
This Catholic church is at the forefront of this discrimination
Therefor the Catholic Church is the enemy.

I asked them what discrimination are they talking about? Does the church say don't hire homosexuals, don't give them driver's licenses, don't give them police protection from violence, don't let them vote or don't let them live together or hold hands in public? NO on all counts, the church just says marriage is not an absolute right and is reserved for heterosexual couples. So how foes the church's opposition to same-sex marriage lead to oppression and violence? You can't legislate people to behave decently.

Diana said...

Please don't think all Lutherans suppose this--the Missouri Synod doesn't.

Matt b said...

In all my time serving ex abusers, I never met one who opposed non-abusers. What they don't understand is "why can't the rest of us accept their abusive actions". Typical PC pedantic crap. BXVI was right about moral relativism

Anonymous said...

I take for granted only that I am to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Church regarding the natural law and chastity.

A man and woman in the covenant of marriage are chaste with each other in the conjugal relationship and openness to new life proper to their state in life.

As a single heterosexual woman, I am to express my love of others by celibate chastity, either temporarily until marriage with a man, or permanently in witness to the Kingdom of God. This, too, is in accordance with the teachings of the Church.

A single person with attractions to the same sex is expected to do no less than the single person who is heterosexual.

The Church does not abandon or discriminate against homosexuals. She invites them to the fullness of life in Christ. And if any of us, heterosexual or homosexual, married or single, falls short of this fullness, God lovingly calls us back to Him in the Sacrament of Penance.

"That in All Things God May Be Glorified"


scotju said...

Lutheranism first promoted the "right" to divorce and re-marriage after a divorce. Should it be any surprise that the moral trajectory of this original sin would lead to sodomy?

Robert said...

I guess the Bishop didn't read my post from 2009, "It's the Biology, Stupid."

Anonymous said...

No one has to understand Catholic doctrine, no one is forced to accept it, understand it, or love it. So why do homosexuals want to force the Catholic Church to love, accept, and understand (as "natural") their behaviors? Why will they not TOLERATE this view others have that their behaviors are wrong? Why do they refuse to live and let live?

Ge0ffrey said...

This Lutheran pastor needs to meet some of the holy men and women of Courage, a Roman Catholic organization of same sex attracted individuals trying to live life chastely, as God has called each non-married person to do. Homosexuality may be a difficult cross to bear, but it is also a thorn in the flesh that can lead to holiness. God bless Courage!

Anonymous said...

This is the same -and only - Lutheran body in full communion with the Episcopal church ... and racing down the same demographic rabbit hole.
++Katharine Jefferts Schori, Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church spouts the same nonsense whenever she can be drawn away from new law suits against fleeing conservative Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. The shriller the rhetoric about 'inclusion' becomes, the nastier these types treat their opponents. Spiritual B.S. in my book.

fidelis said...

Thanks to Martin Luther, we have churches like this........"herchurch".....just google it for yourself and see the insanity.

Anonymous said...

Methinks: "They know not what they do", although one would THINK they would understand it... Ahem. :)

Michael Snow said...

Just this week, there was a meeting at a seminary next to Augustana College in Sioux Falls to present the new Lutheran organization for those who are abandoning the apostate ELCA.

late anonymous said...

I especially like the "some of my best friends are ..." argument.

Anonymous said...

"In Chilstrom's mind, the problem is that we don't know and therefore don't like gay people. If we just got to know them, then all these problems would go away. How utterly juvenile. We know them, we love them, that is why we can never support this behavior becuase it destroys them body and soul."

Clearly you haven't met any LGBT people outside of the narrow confines of your repressive belief system because none of the ones I know are "destroyed" body and soul. LGBT people are happy and productive members of society and the vast majority of them are happy living as we were made, we have no interesting in self-hate or shame. If you actually took Herbert W. Chilstrom's advice and met some people from outside your narrow worldview you would see that to most LGBT people their sexuality is not an issue for them, they just want to live their lives just like everyone else.

Anonymous said...

Because of this sort of business, my husband and I are leaving our ELCA church for the NALC, which was formed largely in response to the ELCA careening off the rails. I do wish that my husband would consider Catholicism, but he's not there yet. Baby steps.

And for those folks outside the ELCA, which I suspect is most of you reading this--it's worse than you even know. Trust me.

Anonymous said...

The LCMS does not believe in gay marriage.However I know Catholics who do. They also perform weddings by being online ordainded thru the universal life church yet they still consider themselves Catholic and take communion at mass.Go figure.It is not what the Bible teaches.

Sophia's Favorite said...

Third to last anonymous, the psychiatric and disease statistics for homosexuals do, in fact, paint a very different picture from your claims. Between their suicide, depression, and alcoholism rates, and the (often fatal) diseases they have a ridiculously high incidence of, homosexuals are, in fact, "destroyed body and soul".

Speaking of narrow worldviews, yours appears bound wholly by your personal experiences. Apparently you are not even aware that "generalization from the self" is a logical fallacy?

Also, if most LGBT people's sexuality is not an issue to them, then why do they define their entire existence by their "orientation"? Heterosexual people don't define themselves as heterosexuals, but merely as people; I hate to break it to you but the very structure of reality is heteronormative. To quote Confucius' commentary on the Yi Jing, "One yin, one yang, this is called the way."

George @ Convert Journal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
George @ Convert Journal said...

From Anonymous: "The LCMS does not believe in gay marriage.However I know Catholics who do. They also perform weddings by being online ordainded thru the universal life church yet they still consider themselves Catholic and take communion at mass.Go figure.It is not what the Bible teaches."

Certainly. There are Catholics who are faithful and there are those who are not. This may reflect on our catechesis or the character of our members, but it does not change the faith or its moral authority. We can only hope, pray, teach... that those who are schismatic within return to the truth.

I am sure it's no different in any other faith community.

Anonymous said...

I am sure it is no different in any other faith community,too.As Christian we must hold to the truth of the Bible.Love the sinner hate the sin.The whole Christian community can not teach a watered down message and change with society. The Bible never changes.

Anonymous said...

Chilstrom's argument is wholly political, and does not define the word "love." If by love he means sex, he need say so but does not because it would weaken his clever little posture.

When sex acts define the word "love" as the 60s generation and those after would have us accept, then "God's love" becomes sullied too. This was the aim of the cultural Marxists of the old Frankfurt School, and suceeding generations who wished to gain rank in the hierarchy of organizations to press their political aims.

My wife and I work in the entertainment industry, and know many homosexuals. Therefore Chilstrom's silly challenge has already been passed by us. Nevertheless we both see the folly of equating same-sex marriage with civil rights issues. Marriage is meant to bind a family together, children to parents. While the statistically small samples of gay adoptive parents is a second issue, the large issue is that marriage merely as an approval of sex acts is a heinous and small-minded argument.

As to the issue of the small percentage of homosexuals -- who already are a small percentage of the population -- it is the gay lobby which strenuously opposes continuing studies of the health of such adoptive children over a decades' long study. Why? Because as we already know, role modeling is a function of human relationships, with poor choices in role models ending up being poor choices in life and society itself.

Chilstrom's church logo includes the phrase, "God's work. Our hands." It might as well read, "God's genatalia. Our hands," because they are focused on sex acts, as a political stance against others, which includes the Catholic Church.

Chilstrom is at best against the Catholic Church, and most evidently a cultural Marxist, though he would complain loudly at being "outed."

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