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For The Record: I Have NOT Criticized The Pope


For the record and for all those who read into posts things that are just not there:

I have not criticized the Pope neither indirectly or otherwise.

I have responded to Cardinal Mahony's tweets and his interpretation of events and I have offered some of my thoughts on liturgy. For anyone to suggest that I am criticizing the Pope implies that they know the Pope would not agree with my thoughts. I have no idea if that is true or not since the Pope hasn't done or said anything in this regard yet. So how can I be criticizing the Pope?

I too have no problem with masses done simply but correctly. My points are directed at folks like the Cardinal that wish to strip the mass of anything not sufficiently plain or simple, as if that is axiomatically better. This is made worse by the Cardinal assuming that the Pope supports his ridiculous assertions.

I am not playing games here, I am totally sincere. I have not criticized the Pope at all.

*subhead*No way, no how.*subhead*

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33 comments:

Helene said...

But you still haven't changed the heading that says "Pope Francis I" There is no "I" It's just Pope Francis.

Adrienne said...

Since the "Pope Storm" has exploded, I consider who is saying what.

I was really appalled at the attacks on you on a Facebook post by someone who shall remain nameless. The pile-on was immediate.

I thought your posts were some of the best I've read.

Patrick Archbold said...

Helene
I leave it up there because it bugs people so!

;-)

Anonymous said...

...and so what if you did... he is a man - fully human. Not Christ himself. In prudential matters, everyone, including the pope, are open to criticism.

Mark

David L Alexander said...

Pat:

You've had a good run. You gave Mahony the cyperspatial @$$-whooping he richly deserved. "Come unto me, all you who are heavily labored, and I shall give thee rest." Have a good stiff drink, preferably single malt. You deserve it. And no, you did not criticize the pope.

In a related story: "Messa in Latino is reporting that a red, fur-lined papal mozetta was hurriedly delivered by Gammarelli to the Vatican today." (h/t to Forward Boldly.)

Anonymous said...

Patrick, your denial only cements your guilt. We have already deemed you impure and pronounced sentence upon you. Stop trying to use facts and logic to escape the inevitable eradication of all your efforts, as we are now dedicated to this goal. We have been assigned by the Church authorities to ferret out all those we deem to possibly be disloyal and we will discharge our duties with impunity.

The League of Internet Inquisitors and Caretakers of the Catholic Faith (or what we deem to be its Internet variation)

MPenny said...

Others have pointed this out, but if anyone has seen the masses held for the religious ed gatherings held yearly in Anaheim Ca sponsored by Cardinal Mahony, they are anything but simple and plain, just one example being the cring inducing choreographed liturgical dancing. It almost seems like the mind set is that if all the "pomp & circumstance" is directed towards or for God then its prideful and unbefitting of Catholicism, but if the ceremony is geared towards celebrating the congregents then its all good, no matter how over the top and in poor taste it is.

Anonymous said...

You know what, I (and a lot of other people, evidently!) read your post and didn't realize you were talking about Cardinal Mahony. I thought you were saying that the Pope was wrong to, you know, cook his own dinner and take the bus and everything. I thought you were saying that his style of simplicity isn't fitting now that he's pope, and that it's really a matter of arrogance and not humility. But I see that I misunderstood. I see your post wasn't about the pope at all. I will try not to jump to conclusions in the future, but in the future if you include in the post the name of the person you're actually talking about, it will help people like me not to think you're talking about someone else. In other words, you were being subtle: you left us guessing. We guessed wrong. Mea culpa, but also tua.

Patrick Archbold said...

Anon
The entire fist part of my post referenced Mahony. I don't know what post you were looking at. The Title said "Mahony Tweets on Liturgy-So Do I" should have been a dead giveaway don't you think?

Kelli said...

Maybe Anon is referencing you Downton post?

Patrick Archbold said...

Kelli
If anyone sees my Downton post as a criticism of the Pope, they are beyond help.

Mary Kay said...

As Anonymi have stated here, you're already guilty AND it's not unCatholic to discuss Pope Francis' liturgical aberrations should we find out that they exist.

And I have referred to our new Holy Father as Pope Francis I because my children are too young to know there wasn't a prior Francis, and that I wasn't on a first name basis when I texted them: 'Habemus Papem, Francis.


As for critiquing Mahoney...he owes a HUGE mea culpa for all of the damage he has done; I don't think many want to know his projections about our new Holy Fathe. He should be silently penitential.....so critique away!

Mike M said...

While there have been some "conservative" or "traditional" Catholics who have been out-of-line hypercritical of Pope Francis (to the point of being almost delusional about it,) I'm quickly tiring of the people who are reacting by acting outraged by any comments that might be even tangentially critical of anything he does.

I like Pope Francis. I think that he's a great man and I expect that he'll be a great blessing as Pope. But, naturally, I have a few disagreements with him. It would be creepy if I didn't. Yes, I would like to have seen him in a mozetta, and even in red shoes. At the same time, I've rather enjoyed his cross-centric homilies and addresses. Whether I agree or disagree with him on something doesn't add or subtract from his rightful authority as Pope. People need to simmer down.

Kelli said...

My main concern, in being a Protestant convert to the faith and being the only catholics in our family, is how I see firsthand how these types of comments and disagreements affect the views of Protestants towards the catholic faith. In their mind, why should try take the claim of being Christ's church seriously, when the body is fighting over his red shoes. It's frustrating. Charity all around.

Kelli said...

Autocorrect is killing me. Please disregard any weirdly phrased sentences, lol

Patrick Archbold said...

I have never, not once, mentioned his red shoes. Do not conflate my statements with the statements of others.

Helene said...

But bless your heart -- you changed it. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Yes, I mean the Downton post. Please reread it, but this time through the eyes of someone who has not read your previous posts on Cardinal Mahony--who hasn't even heard about the latest goings-on with Cardinal Mahony. You write about someone who needs to learn that "simplicity is not always humility, and pomp is not always pride." That's exactly how the rad-trads have been writing about the pope.

I think you were viewing the Downton article as a continuation of previous posts. But it's unreasonable to assume that everyone who reads your latest post has also read your last ones.

My point in writing this comment is to show that the misunderstanding wasn't in bad faith. You wrote something that relied on a context that many of your readers didn't have. I am glad to realize that I misunderstood you.

Vox Cantoris said...

Questioning is not criticism.

The Pope, in temporal matters that are within his prudential judgment, can be questioned, with charity.

Has fascist political correctness invaded us too or do we have in incorrect view of papal infallibility?

Banshee said...

1. Of course we can question popes. Goodness, the Romans of Roma play that home game all the times.

2. OTOH, it's hilarious to see folks like Mahony, Boff, Kung, etc. trying to claim this pope as one of their own (and trads believing it!) when this pope spent a lifetime getting ripped on by the liberals of his own order and diocese.

It's easily seen that this is a power play, but most people believe it. For some reason.

Kelli said...

I understand you haven't, it was a facetious example. Again, charity all around.

Rick said...

I agree, you haven't. But even if you did, it is alright to criticize, to question and even to dissent from certain matters even if they come from the Pope. My professor at CUA wrote an exellent book called "The Limits of the Papacy". He is only the pope, not God-incarnate.

Rick said...

Now Mahoney and the weed in CA makes for interesting liturgical dances - just sayin'

Anonymous said...

Other people like myself are starting to notice that this is a "Personality Cult" and because of this nobody can or should be critical about anything. It goes with the territory. But it is not just "Liberal" or "Progressive" Catholics. Its also "Faithful" Catholics like Dolan, Donald Wuerhl and even the great Ralph Martin and Peter Tagle of the Phiillpines. They say in effect Francis is a better Pope than Benedict because he's "Pastor" which is to say the latter was not. What B.S.

Anonymous said...

After reading so many criticisms of the Holy Father, I never thought yours were. There have been so many vile, vicious attacks that I am left saddened, frustrated, and confused. And these comments are not coming from the progressives, or heterodox. There is much room for discussion, and criticism, but done with respect, humility, and charity. This is how, if done at all, I have seen it here. The far right has spewed out such venom that I am embarrassed to have anything to do with that group.
Signed, A Catholic Who Loves the Traditional Mass AND the Holy Father

Patrick Archbold said...

Absolutely reading my Downton post as an attack is in bad faith.

It made a simple point.

"simplicity is not always humility and pomp not always pride. "

Which in no way precludes the reverse. This statement is obviously true. To read this as an attack on the Pope requires a mind predisposed to see attacks everywhere.

That is bad faith.

Rick said...

A Greek philosopher criticized another with false humility saying, "Pride is coming out through the holes of your garment." And as Rick Warren wrote, "Humility is not thinking less of yourself but rather thinking of yourself less." Finally St. Theresa of Avila defines humility as truth. I am not saying that the pope has false humility but rather defining with humility and simplicity is and confirming what Patrick wrote.

Anonymous said...

Patrick,

There is nothing inherently wrong with criticizing the Pope. It depends on what is said, and depends on what the Pope did.

Nathan

Brian Sullivan said...

So if I disagree with your post (e.g. Downton), I am seeing things that are not there? I have bad faith? Why is it always your readers who are wrong?

Patrick Archbold said...

Brian,
If you think that my Downton post is criticizing the Pope, then yes. You are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Your Downton post has been linked on Fr. Z's blog (in the comments) as being about the Pope. So apparently, it is a common misconception.

Sophia's Favorite said...

Yeah, if the Downton post wasn't intended to be about the Pope, then you are a bad satirist.

Any satire where it is not immediately obvious who the target is, is bad satire. Indeed, any written work where it is not immediately obvious what the topic is, is bad writing. The whole point of full-fledged writing—as opposed to mere mnemonic aids, i.e. proto-writing like birch-bark pictographs and Easter Island rongorongo—is that you don't have to already know the message's contents to know what it's about.

This is the second time where your posts have seemed, to at least a sizeable minority of their audience, to be something quite different from what you claim. At the very least, that is a failure to communicate on your part—and that's kinda the point of writing.

KCKim said...

I've learned that s/he who sticks her/his neck out and says anything in the public arena will be attacked by some and supported by others. Further attempts to clarify what one meant never really change the minds of those who attacked. So render your opinions, and know that you will never please everyone all of the time.

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