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Talking Turkeys - Cardinal Dolan Capitulates

I must admit that my frustration and disappointment with Cardinal Dolan is mounting.

The tough talk followed by the wink, nod, and chuckle is wearing thin.

Cardinal Dolan, according to the DailyNews said that he and the Bishops would be “as vociferous and rigorous as possible in our opposition” to the governor’s efforts" to further entrench NY as the aborto-murder capitol of the world.

One would hope that 'as vociferous as possible" will amount to something more than the embarrassing and inept day late and dollar short effort the bishops put up against gay marriage.

One would hope, alas, I wouldn't hope too hard.

When asked how Cuomo could still consider himself a Catholic in good standing while also promoting such extreme abortion legislation, Dolan responded: “That’s something that I talk turkey with him about.”

Wow. Finally a bishop, a Cardinal no less, is gonna tell a virulently pro-murder politician that you can't be a virulently pro-murder politician and a Catholic and good standing.

Except the Cardinal is going to do no such thing. Dolan spokesman Joseph Zwilling made it clear later that the Cardinal believes you can be a virulently pro-murder politician and a Catholic and good standing when shortly after the Cardinal's tough talk he was quick to say "the cardinal did not mean to suggest that Cuomo would not be a Catholic in good standing if he went forward with the bill."

Say what?

Apparently talking turkey has been ditched in favor of talking turkeys.

Hell is gonna have to add a new wing to accommodate all the Catholics in good standing.

The bishops and Cardinal Dolan ought to be ashamed.

*subhead*Enough already.*subhead*

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Anonymous said...

I've been disappointed in Cardinal Dolan for a long time

Anonymous said...

Don't you remember recently, after distributing Holy Communion, to Mr Biden, he justified it saying he was trying something different or some such nonsense. Catholics will never take Christ's Church seriously as long as the Cardinal of DC and this one continue to allow sacrilege.

John Scott said...

Too bad. For a while there, I thought Dolan might be the real thing. Looks like there aren’t any teeth behind the showmanship and the yukking it up. Yet another empty suit – or rather, vacant vestments - bishop.

Joseph D'Hippolito said...

Frankly, why should we be surprised? Catholic prelates have had a long and inglorious history of sacrificing their spiritual patrimony for political influence and patronage, if not the ability to be among the "elite."

The divine judgement that this church is going to receive will be more fierce than anybody realizes.

Av8er said...

He lost me at the Al Davis dinner invite to Obama. He explained it as Jesus having dinner with sinners, publicans, etc. But, Jesus did not have dinner with Herod nor Pilate. Jesus didn't even talk to Herod when He was in front of him.

Lynda said...

This is in keeping with his generally weak-kneed behaviour relative to his duty to teach and uphold the truth in Faith and morals in the public square - sadly. I had expected a strong, consistent orthodox Archbishop of New York from the impression I'd got through Catholic Media outlets. I was, therefore, delighted when he became Archbishop. I was soon puzzled, then increasingly worried, finally very upset at his compromising with evil. The Al Smith Dinner was the nail in the coffin. The Faithful have been abandoned and betrayed by probably a majority of Bishops. We continue to hope and pray and make some reparation.

Lynne said...



Proteios1 said...

I don't know what he is dealing with on a day to day basis. I'm sure he like all of us pray for our leaders. But if I'm to mistaken, correct me if I am (words Catholic politicians might consider entering into their vocab) they are automatically not worthy of communion if they support legislation that contradicts Church teaching. I can't recall if excommunication is involved or under what circumstance, but I am confident about losing the ability to receive communion. And if these rules don't matter, receiving the Eucharist unworthily is grave.

I don't know if Biden or others sneak into confession so the cafeteria Catholics don't purge him as a hero and then take communion. He might. He seems like a coward. But if not. Yikes!

Dad29 said...

He was very good at evading issues in Wisconsin, too.

Mack Hall, HSG said...

Yet another bishop whose loyalty is to pop culture and the cool set instead of the God, the Faith, the Bishop of Rome, and the Holy Innocents.

Mack Hall, HSG said...

To God. Sorry.

GSmith said...

I don't like Dolan. He's a villain. Get rid of him.

Jay Anderson said...

Dolan is the kept prelate of the political class.

And I say that as someone who likes him.

Carlos Carrasco said...

"The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops." --- Saint Athanasius.

Anonymous said...

The only difference between Dolan and Joe Biden is about 100 pounds. Both ate Catholic in name only, both have created their own version of the Church, both are loud and crude. How can anyone be surprised that Dolan "caved in". He doesn't care about abortion or gay "marriage" or any of these liberal agendas.......that's why he doesn't fight them and just gives lip service to the teachings of the Church. You can tell everything about a priest by the way he celebrates Mass. Go on youtube and watch Dolan saying Christmas Eve Mass in St. Patrick's. It's all about him, no reverence, joking, improvising the liturgy etc. That tells you he is arrogant, a phony, and lives clericalism to the hilt. Clericalism is not about lace and fiddlebacks, it's about arrogance.

Steve Dalton said...

Dolan has always come across to me as an empty headed chucklehead. Nearly every picture I've ever seen of him shows him laughing his fool head off.

Anonymous said...

We need another John the Baptist. Someone who's not afraid to stand up to politicians and kings. Someone who's humble enough to take coach (or in JtheB's case, to walk) instead of demanding private jets and chariots to take him to his speaking engagements. We need real martyrs for the faith here in our own country to remind us this is a spiritual war. Enough with this namby pamby stuff.

Mary De Voe said...

Cardinal Dolan does not want a schism in the church. He wants the atheist-abortionists to have it all.

Rick said...

People elsewhere are dying because they chose Christ over Mohammed. Meanwhile back in NY we hear "pastoral reasons" i.e. nothing but a rationalization to justify selling out, scandalizing the faith community, weakening the witness and confusing the Truth. He needs to cut down on the cheesecake and meditate on his role and mission as prince of the Church. So what if he sleeps with the fishes, what is he - afraid?

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Anonymous said...

So, someone please explain to me, can we criticize a Bishop or not?

I have been reading the Catholic internet about this for years, and my head is spinning. The number of conflicting opinions about fraternal correction of prelates must number in the millions now. The lay bloggers are mostly for skewering the Bishops, the priest bloggers are mostly about praying for them. Some people claim it's a terrible sin to criticize a Bishop, some only in print, some not at all.

This blog appears to be the most "visible" of the 'orthodox, pro-Bishop skewering' blogs out there. Considering the amount of trouble Voris has encountered, I'm wondering how long until this blog has to take a more 'nuanced' position.

Personally, I think any really visible Catholic blogger, if they are going to skewer a Bishop, really needs to make known their position on the whole matter of Catholics, particularly laity, criticizing the hierarchy in the public square.

August said...

Bishop Oresme would have likely barred these politicians from the sacraments for the sin of inflating the money supply. We Catholics have forgotten so much about good governance in our haste to be democratic and, even worse, reasonable. Our bishops should allow us to be married without regard to the state. They should also start noticing it is getting ridiculously expensive, and bureaucratic. They have dinners with wealthy murderers, but do nothing to foster future generations of the Church.
How do they read the Lord's harsh words against the pharisees without fear?

Anonymous said...

Isn't there an issue here also with the fact that Cuomo is in a very public non-marital relationship with Sandra Lee? They have openly set up house together. There have been two incidents lately where gays living with partners have suffered the consequences because their public lives were deemed to be inconsistent with church teaching. The fellow in Long Island who was relieved of parish responsibilities and the lesbian teacher in Columbus, Ohio who was fired from teaching at a Catholic school. Those were correct decisions, clearly. But isn't this case analogous? How can Andrew Cuomo be a catholic in good standing when openly flouting the moral laws of the church?

mortimer zilch said...

Yeah, the readers here seem to agree in their general opinion of Cardinal Dolan. THAT'S WHY Dolan got elected president of the UCCB....they're ALL like that...or almost down to the last man.

Blackrep said...

Of course you can criticize a bishop. What's he going to do, excommunicate you? I could dance up to communion in only a rainbow sash and chaps, holding hands with my partner Steve after I've performed a couple of abortions with a copy of my new book that proves Jesus was a lesbian woman under my arm. So, relax.

I am probably the last person in the world who should accuse someone of a lack of gravitas, but what is with these bishops and their 1950's Dear Abby expressions lately? "Talk turkey?" "Don't be a pickled pepper?" "Don't be an old maid?" How about, don't talk to my like I'm a seventh grader. Don't fritter around with quaint colloquialisms while serious error and lack of discipline swallows your Church whole.

As you can see, I am trying to heed my own advice and I've refrained, for once, from mentioning a disco ball in my picturesque speech. There is hope for even me.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if Dolan needs a spine, a brain or both...nothing he does surprises me anymore.

Anonymous said...

Of course you can criticize a bishop. What's he going to do, excommunicate you?

I'm not primarily worried about Earthly consequences.


Rick said...

When the hierarchy does not get criticized, then it becomes unaccountable and we all saw how that ended up. (Hint: recycled child molesters)

Magdalene said...

He is a disgrace and an embarrassment to faithful Catholics. He is weak and does not stand up to evil but rather plays 'footsie' with the politicians who for their part participate in and promote grave intrinsic evils. This Cardinal will have to answer to Christ for his failures.

Anonymous said...


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These links usually lead to “adult” and/or pornographic sites.

Anonymous said...

Hear! Hear!
The only image that comes to mind at the words, “Cdl. Dolan,” is that of a red-faced rotund man in clerical garb, with his mouth wide open in laughter, yucking it up with someone he should reprimand or be avoiding!

Anonymous said...

When the hierarchy does not get criticized, then it becomes unaccountable and we all saw how that ended up. (Hint: recycled child molesters)

And, I suppose you think that any improvements are the result of fraternal correction by the laity? Excuse me, but that's sort of dumb.


Rick said...

You underestimate the power of popular opinion - even in faith communities. Then again, we engage in correction because the Lord exhorted us to do so. We will be appraised on our faithful efforts and not on the results.

Only godless Liberals use success as a bell weather of godliness.

Anonymous said...

Only godless Liberals use success as a bell weather of godliness.

But you just...in your comment...it's the same...oh never mind.


Donna M said...

...another leader "falling" to the enemies of Christ.

...in seeking the "lost" sheep, he has gotten rather,"lost" himself!
...the road to "hell" is "always" paved with good intentions! He should have known better, than to appear at the DNC (convention).
...oh brother!, the scandal brought tears.

...and the "hits" to the faithful keep on coming...;(

John B said...

Cardinal Dolan is somewhere between an amiable lightweight who is culpably naive or something much, much worse. Unfortunately I'm starting to think more of the latter.

Anonymous said...

even independent from his active cooperation in evil, is his publicly known living circumstance, which ALONE DEMANDS HE BE REFUSED HOLY COMMUNION.

Resist the Mandate said...

What bugs me most is the way, even among Cathlics, Dolan is regarded as some sort of de-facto head of the Church in America. There is absolutely nothing in canon law that gives Timothy Dolan any more right to be listened to or followed than any other bishop. The national bishops' conference is a recent, meaningless invention and is not part of Sacred Tradition. EACH bishop is the top authority in his own diocese, and all are subordinate to Rome. Period.

The archdiocese of New York may be important to us for cultural or social reasons, but that is pure sentimentality. Dolan is not worthy of any more clout than any other bishop, and ALL of us need to quit granting it to him! This would be true no matter who is the archbishop of New York. Dolan only sucks up all the oxygen in the room because American Catholics -- brainwashed by the silly, obtuse media -- are willing to give it to him. Enough, enough, enough already!

Anonymous said...

his active cooperation in evil demands excommunication (what the Mexican hierarchy did for the legislators of Mexico City a while back who passed the abortion bill)!

Lori said...

Good grief - could you people please not yammer on about canon law, puffing yourselves up like experts on the subject until you understand something about it?

I'm not surprised at the newspaper kerfuffle. Here's why. Canon law, like all other laws, involves jurisdiction. Cardinal Dolan is not Gov. Cuomo's bishop, therefore he doesn't have the right to lay Canon 915 on him or excommunicate him. Only Cuomo's own bishop, the bishop of Albany, where he lives, has that right.

So if someone were to suggest that Cardinal Dolan has said Cuomo isn't a Catholic in good standing, Cardinal Dolan would be obliged to correct them, because he has no right to say that; he would be encroaching on another bishop's authority.

For the record, he's not Joe Biden's bishop either; the VP's home is in Delaware.

Nothing on God's green earth is going to prevent these pro-abort, pro-gay marriage Catholics from going to Communion. They will go anyway, even if excommunicated, because they feel entitled, whether from lack of catechesis or lack of faith, I don't know. And if they do it because of the inaction of a whole generation of bishops it's not all Cardinal Dolan's fault.

All the personal attacks on Cdl Dolan for his weight, his laugh, his personality, etc., are mean and petty. The poster and commenters here ought to be ashamed -- and get their facts straight.

Donna M said...

...always include at the end of each rosary decade an invocation for the protecton and sanctification, for the defence, salvation and holiness of priests and religious.

Anonymous said...

He lost me at the Al Davis dinner invite to Obama. He explained it as Jesus having dinner with sinners, publicans, etc.

Maybe I misread the reference, but wasn't Jesus the one invited by the sinners to dine with them, not the other way around?

Anonymous said...

""Maybe I misread the reference, but wasn't Jesus the one invited by the sinners to dine with them, not the other way around?""

Yes, and then Jesus smiled for a photo op with them and failed to correct their error.

Oh, wait. Jesus didn't ever do that. Because that would be overlooking grave public and cooperating with evil.

Anonymous said...

Lori posted:

For the record, he's not Joe Biden's bishop either; the VP's home is in Delaware.

Oh, Lori, you're so cute. Don't you know that this game has been the primary excuse for NONE of the Bishops to do their job for years? Thanks for being so innocent, I'm glad there are a few of you left.

Rick said...

I still think he loves NY cheesecake; who wouldn't? And he looks like it too; don't you think?

newguy40 said...

Lori thinks we're all "mean". Golly.

I think the greater issue is the desire for leadership and pastoral care from the Cardinal rather than platitudes. Kinda like Lori's comments.

J.O. said...

It is inappropriate to share negative information about another person that it is not necessary for others to know. That is called detraction. And when it involves ordained persons, ie, deacons, priests, bishops, popes...it also involved sacrilege because, regardless of their personal virtue or lack thereof, they are sacred persons due to their consecration to the Lord. So we can argue about whether sharing all these things is truly necessary to put out there at random in the public view, and whether it serves any purpose or not. I tend to think it does more harm than good by tearing down the obedience and respect we all should have for our bishops. To insult Dolan personally as so many of these comments do is nothing but a sin.

If we would all spend our time PRAYING and SACRIFICING for the bishops instead of criticizing them and wasting time reading and commenting, they would probably all be marvelous saints by now. Why don't we all go spend an hour in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament praying for Dolan, instead of possibly endangering our own souls, and that of others, by tearing him down publicly?

tuleesh said...

Rick @4:40 PM
Certainly likes being a cheesehead.

Av8er said...

1) sorry about my Al Davis post. Late night back from work. I meant Al Smith, thanks Linda for the correction. Al Davis owned (owns?) the Raiders.
2) Matthew 9:9-12
3) No one is above correction. Also, why would anyone assume that we who criticise do not also pray that all bishops and priests stand up for Truth. Don't we pray for all the clergy at each Mass?
4) Who, if not the laity, will hold accountable the princes of the Church if they do not hold themselves accountable?

Lori said...

Av8er said...

"No one is above correction. Also, why would anyone assume that we who criticise do not also pray that all bishops and priests stand up for Truth."

I never suggested the Cardinal was above criticism. I did suggest that if people want to criticize him, they should do it with a few facts at their command and ditch the mean-spiritedness. But by far the best thing is to pray.

Lori said...

Anonymous: so you think canon law is a game?

Katalina said...

Cardinal Dolan has been trying to have it both ways for the last few years. He is the example of not the Catholic Church but the "Church of Nice" where all we do is "talk" and "dialogue" and as we see in the last 40 years it has not worked and now we are being persecuted. Look at how he handled the Same- Sex passage there a few years back as well as the Al Smith Dinner last October.He is a "go along to get along man" and it is a shame.

elm said...

O my Jesus, I beg You on behalf of the whole Church: Grant it love and the light of Your Spirit, and give power to the words of Priests (Bishops) so that hardened hearts might be brought to repentance and return to You, O Lord.

Lord, give us holy priests: You Yourself maintain them in holiness. O Divine and Great Hight Priest, may the power of Your Mercy accompany them everywhere and protect them from the devil's traps and snares which are continually being set for the souls of priests. May the power of Your Mercy, O Lord, shatter and bring to naught all that might tarnish the sanctity of priests, for You can do all things.
St. Maria Faustina

ANNE said...

All personal opinions aside - -
On the Vatican web site you will find: Apostolic Constitution "SACRAE DISCIPLINAE LEGES" of the
SUPREME PONTIFF POPE JOHN PAUL II for the Promulgation of the New Code of Canon Law (1983) which states: "Finally, the canonical laws by their very nature MUST be observed".

When Cardinal Dolan refuses to observe Canon 915 or Canon 1399, he is disobedient to Church teaching.
He should resign if he does not fully comply with Church teaching.

ANNE said...

A Bishop is responsible for everything "Catholic" within his own Diocese.

However, when any Diocese Bishop or Cardinal is aware that another Bishop is not teaching and adhering 100% to the Catholic Faith, and thus causes the mortal sin of SCANDAL, - the offending Bishop or Cardinal should be reported to the Vatican with a copy of the official complaint to the US Papal Nuncio.

Cavorting and having photo-ops with heretics and/or schismatics is scandalous.

ANNE said...

JO - you are only partially correct. In this case because the PUBLIC actions or lack of appropriate public action is the issue - - - the mortal sin of scandal can exist which causes the loss of Souls.
These are not private sins.

On the Vatican web site search: Code of Canon Law.
Under "Obligations and Rights of ALL the Christian Faithful" you will find.
"Can 212 §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty
to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church
and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful,
without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons."

ANNE said...

To understand the seriousness of the MORTAL SINS of SACRILEGE against the Body and Blood of our Lord, SCANDAL, and some Diocese Bishops aiding abetting these sins by not correcting those obstinate in public grave sin - per Canon 915 & 1399 - please read:
the "Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition" for the definitions for:
SACRILEGE, SCANDAL, HERESY, SCHISM, also when we are also responsible for the sins of others.

and on the internet read:
"Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion, General Principles" 2004 by Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) - http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

" Discipline Regarding the Denial of Holy Communion to Those Obstinately Persevering in Manifest Grave Sin " by Most Rev. Raymond L. Burke.

ANNE said...

Lori, not only Cardinal Dolan but every Bishop and each of us have the responsibility to correct sinners no matter where they are located. Admonishing sinners, instructing the uninformed, are Spiritual Works of Mercy.

When Cardinal Dolan knows that Sacrilege and/or Scandal are being committed, he has an obligation to talk to the sinner he comes in contact with - teaching the entire truth, including but not limited to heresy and schism.

Although the Diocese Bishop (and if he has to go over the head of the Diocese Bishop - the Pope) has authority to excommunicate within a Diocese - all Bishops must speak the truth in entirety.
Other Bishops from outside the Diocese to see that the rest of the Church is not being harmed - as in the case of a heretical and schismatic politician who pubically advertises him/herself as being "Catholic". CCC 894.

CCC: "1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers.

ANNE said...

Dear Friends - I'm sorry to take up so much space today, and may not be back to this site for some time.
Each of us can usually find the answers to our questions by reading:
1) Catholic Bible;
2) Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition (CCC);
3) Code of Canon Law;
4) GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).

The CCC, Code, and GIRM can all be found on the Vatican web site.
For direct links to these and other Official Church Documents, on the net go to: "What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE".

Hope I have been helpful.

“In this Year of Faith let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” - Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.

Louis C. Gasper said...


Your point about jurisdiction is correct, but it was Cardinal Dolan who said he would "talk turkey" to Cuomo. He thus did not defer to the jurisdiction of another bishop. Having inserted himself, he then proceeded to refuse judgment on Cuomo. It's at least inconsistent.

Lori said...

Louis, what is inconsistent about that? Cardinal Dolan certainly has the right to speak to or advise or admonish Cuomo privately, and dispute with him publicly (I guess that's what "talking turkey" means), but he doesn't have the right to lay any canonical penalties on him or threaten to do so. As far as I can see, this is the route he is following.

He doesn't have to say "I defer to his bishop" though it might have been better to have done so to make things clear. On the other hand, this might have made the other bishop uncomfortable, because now he would seem publicly responsible for doing something.

If I remember right, the bishop of Albany is Howard Hubbard and he is quite opposed to using canonical penalties in such cases. (Unless he is now retired?)

Cardinal Dolan may have wanted to expose the other bishop to public fire. Maybe this is the go-along-to-get- along attitude others are criticizing. Maybe he is guilty of some weakness here. But this is a far cry from what others were originally accusing him of.

Katalina said...

We need to distinguish here between simply by put downs of the Cardinal's appearance and the other of being critical of his actions which is what this article is about. The Cardinal's action since he became head of the Diocese of New York. The issue is of standing up to the "culture of death" political leaders and on the other hand the way most of the Mainstream Catholic media is afraid to even bring these things up.

RJHighland said...

I will not have any respect for any Bishop or Cardinal in the Catholic Church until he has a standard policy in his Dioceses that any public official that supports any legislation that supports contraception, abortion or same sex marriage be prohibited from communion until he/she has publicly repented of the sin and has gone to confession with the bishop or there is written confirmation by the individuals priest that a true repentance has occurred. Cardinal Burke it seems is the only Bishop I know of that has had the stones to do that. Cardinal Dolan I fear is greatly lacking in the stones department. I pray he grows a pair because his allowing Governor Cuomo to receive communion at the hand of any clergy or lay person is a sin crying to God for judgment. If an extra ordinary minister of communion is squeamish about denying communion that's not a problem, you shouldn't be distributing our Lord anyway find something else to do in the service of our Lord. If an ordinary minister of communion finds it difficult to do this just maybe you chose the wrong vocation. The Lord did go to the money changers in the Temple and say "Hey guys let’s talk turkey here, you really shouldn't be doing this in my Father's house. So could y'all just please pack it up and move outside please?" No he spent all day making a whip and thrashed the buggers.

RJHighland said...

One correction to previous post, "The Lord did not go to...

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