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Gov. Christie: Homosexuality Not A Sin

Separation of Church & State!

I am still waiting for the actual quote that will be part of a signing statement by the Governor when he signs a bill outlawing any therapy that attempts to alter sexual orientation in minors.

Of course (and I am tired of having to say this every time) the inclination is not sinful but the acts are. Either way, whether inclination or act, homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. NJ and Governor Christie are outlawing any treatment for those with intrinsic disorders and making declarations on the the sinfulness of this or that. Separation of Church and state indeed.

TRENTON, N.J. — New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie plans to sign a bill Monday barring licensed therapists from trying to make gay minors straight.

New Jersey will be the second state to ban so-called conversion therapy, along with California.

The bill passed both houses of the Legislature with bipartisan support in June.

Gay activists pushing the ban were uncertain what Christie would do.

In a signing note accompanying the bill obtained by The Associated Press that will be made public Monday, Christie says he believes people are born gay and homosexuality is not a sin. That view is inconsistent with his Catholic faith.


*subhead*Separation of Church & State! .*subhead*

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23 comments:

BTanaka said...

Since when does he have the authority or expertise to tell therapists how to do their job? When did his personal beliefs become the standard to which medical experts have to conform?

So ends my last tenuous respect for Christie as a politician.

Proteios1 said...

Hey. It beats balancing budgets, getting affordable healthcare for everyone ( I mean the real kind, not the ACA that none knows how to implement) or not spending state pension funds. I fact, this dangerous little distraction is certainly keeping us from asking all the important questions about our corrupt political system and what they are scheming.

Aged parent said...

Is this cut-rate Caligula also going to bar priests in the Confessional from trying to encourage their penitents to give up this hideous mortal sin - one which, by the way, can be committed in thought, word and/or deed?

Boonton said...

"Separation of Church and state indeed."

A 'treatment' or 'therapy' denotes a medical procedure, process or substance that achieves either a physiological change on the body or change on the mind.

Church would imply some spiritual type of counseling that is meant not to alter the mind but change the mind, if you will.

Therapy is regulated by the gov't, church is not. The gov't issues licenses for therapists, which protects them from compeitition and also puts min. standards on them. You are allowed to sue a therapist for malpractice as well.

The gov't does not do this with spiritual counselors. You cannot sue your priest for malpractice if you feel his advice was or wasn't orthodox. You cannot sue a Wiccan for improperly caste spells. The advantage of course is a lot more freedom. The disadvantage, of course, is any quack can put up a shingle declaring himself a priest/seer/divine messenger etc and it's up to you to protect yourself by followng good judgement or relying upon others to do it for you (such as only accepting those endorsed by a major denomination as 'legitimate')

Therapists have unlimited freedom of speech and religion. They don't have the freedom to sell anything as therapy unless it's backed up by sound science.

Michael said...

Oh, please! "Sound science" is determined by the political class - it's whatever they fund at the moment.

Behavioral therapy is used for alcoholism, smoking and a host of other things. It's all perfectly fine until the "sacred cow" of sex is involved, then it's complete quackery!

Let's be clear, one's preferred sexual activity is a behavior, it is not an identity anymore than one's preferred street drug. Go troll somewhere else Mr/Ms pseudo-science!

Gus Barbarigo said...

Any science that ignores the obvious biological impossibility of homosexuality is not science, i.e the parts don't fit.

Mack Hall, HSG said...

I always vote, but given the weak, please-be-my-friend Republican candidates I anticipate spoiling my ballot in future. A voter is NOT required to vote for the least objectionable hand-puppet pushed forward by apparat.

ProudHillbilly said...

"Christie says he believes people are born gay". Except there's no proof of that.

Boonton said...

Behavioral therapy is used for alcoholism, smoking and a host of other things. It's all perfectly fine until the "sacred cow" of sex is involved, then it's complete quackery!

Behaviorial therapy is just that. If used for alcoholism then it's goal is to help you stop drinking, period.

Let's be clear, one's preferred sexual activity is a behavior,

It is? That's clear? If you asked most people is there a difference between an alcoholic who abstains from drinking and one who gets drunk every night, most people would say there's a clear difference and that difference is based on objective, observable behavior. The therapy doesn't promise to make someone not have any desire for drinking.

And to the extent that it does, it must be based on something measurable and objective. For example, giving 100 people a pill every day and 100 people a placeabo and asking them to keep a daily log of their desire to drink, smoke or whatnot.

Oh, please! "Sound science" is determined by the political class

Ahh yes, I forgot the right wing has embraced warmed over relativism that they found at the back of the 1960's fridge ("there is no objective truth, science is just a political power game!"). Not true, but let's just say that it is for the sake of entertaining you. So what? What does that have to do with Church & State?

Gus

Any science that ignores the obvious biological impossibility of homosexuality is not science, ...

Radical relativists are known for making absurd, blanket statements like this. Since they believe truth is whatever they happen to want or desire it to be, there's no need to even make a show of pretending to support their absurd pronouncements nor demonstrate the sligtest bit of intellectual humility by acknowledging their knowledge might, gasp, be limited!

Bob said...

When did he become a moral theologian?

Sophia's Favorite said...

Boonton...there are studies demonstrating the effectiveness of therapy in treating homosexuality. Nothing except ideology, which says that homosexuality doesn't need therapy, has ever challenged it. Are you willfully ignorant or do you know this and claim not to? Could it be you honestly didn't know? Are you deceiving yourself, or us—or are you just a blithering ignoramus?

Actually, whichever of the three is the answer here, the broader answer to the question of what you are is "a troll". We must all admire your dedication to your internet street-theater to subvert the concept of universal human worth, but it's become tiresome; give it a rest, little troll.

Sophia's Favorite said...

Also, to address one point you made, little troll, the reason this is a separation of church and state issue is Christie wants to ban this therapy because he says homosexuality is not a sin. Who the hell authorized him to say whether it was a sin or not?

Christie is acting purely ideologically, and in language that presumes to judge theological issues where he is not competent. Since you could not even grasp that aspect of the case, little troll, it's really time for you to shut up about it.

Elizabeth said...

Wow, who the h*** does he think he is? By the way, is Christie a "catholic"? As BTanaka stated, "So ends my last tenuous respect for Christie as a politician." Yep.

Proteios1 said...

S I'm supposed to pretend homosexuality is NOT a sin, simply because I have a gay friend. I guess I should condone theft because this gay friend is a highly unethical banker who, I think, defrauds people. Maybe it isn't fraud anymore than campaign donations are bribery. Bottom line is that a sin has been, is and always will be a sin regardless of how my feeling about it may change.
Cheating on an exam is a sin. Yet most studies indicate students think cheating is only wrong if you get caught. Imagine that. So unethical derivatives trading is only a sin if they get caught. And based on the two corrupt party system. Even if you get caught it apparently isn't a sin.

Boonton said...

Boonton...there are studies demonstrating the effectiveness of therapy in treating homosexuality

Feel free to cite 3 such studies. Recall the standard here "trying to make gay minors straight". Such studies would you cite would have to not simply demonstrate that gay patients could choose to be chaste or not partake in sexual activity, they would have to demonstrate making 'gay people straight' meaning after therapy people who were totally gay would be as heterosexual as any person we'd consider straight. You stepped in it here so you demonstrate your point.

the broader answer to the question of what you are is "a troll".

little troll

Name calling is the hallmark of the childish mind. Even so it wouldn't be so bad if you were actually witty or entertaining in your name calling...instead your're just repetative. Like your mother might have told you about makeup, sometimes less is more.

the reason this is a separation of church and state issue is Christie wants to ban this therapy because he says homosexuality is not a sin.

Let me school you on a little thing called the Constitution. The way it works is the Executive decides whether sign a law or veto it. The question of church/state involves the law itself, not why the Executive chooses to sign it or not. Who cares why he opts to sign a law. Maybe he has a demented, Satanic priest he keeps in his bedroom who throws dice and reads entrails who tells him the Nordic Gods say he should sign this law. Or maybe he is just saying and doing whatever he thinks will help him win both the GOP nomination and next election. All that matters is whether or not the law itself violates the Constitution. YOu can't have a Constitutional law that becomes unconstitutional because the Executive suddenly has 'unconstitutional motives'.

Nan said...

His bishop should chat with him.

Paul Zummo said...

You stepped in it here so you demonstrate your point.

Yes, people usually demonstrate their point. That's a very astute observation there, Cochese.

.instead your're just repetative.

r-e-p-e-t-e-t-i-v-e.

Let me school you on a little thing called the Constitution.

Oh look, the little guy is trying to play constitutional scholar. It's an amusing thing to bring up considering that we are discussing the state of New Jersey and thus a discussion of the federal constitution is not strictly speaking germane, but you definitely get points for trying.

You might want to sit the rest of this thread out before you hurt yourself.

akg41470 said...

"Separation of church and state"

???

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Boonton said...

The First Amendment to the Constitution applies to the states via incorporation. But if you don't think that then what's your beef? NJ could declare a state religion and make Christie the head of the Church if it wanted too.

Yes, people usually demonstrate their point.

Actually I was giving you an imperative. Please cite 3 scientific studies that claim what you have claimed.

sparrow said...

"weak, please-be-my-friend Republican candidates" Nice phrase: sums Christie up well.
Contrast that "be nice" mentality with last Sundays Gospel where Christ tells us He will cause division father vs son etc. It's just not possible to be faithful to the Church and world at the same time.

Wine in the Water said...

"Christie says he believes people are born gay and homosexuality is not a sin. That view is inconsistent with his Catholic faith."

This is just another example of how ignorant most journalists are about Catholicism. Christie is not appointing himself moral theologian here. The Catholic Church actually does teach that homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual *acts* are sins. Unfortunately, our culture can't differentiate between desire and action, and it seems that has confused the author.

Now, whether Christie is appropriately applying Catholic teaching here is another matter. This kind of therapy is fraught with danger. It can work, some people have seen a shift in their desires and their "orientation." But it only seems to work for a rather small percentage of people. On the flip side, the promise of "healing" so often pushed by those who offer the therapy and the high percentage of people for whom it has no effect have lead to this kind of therapy having done tremendous harm in many people's lives. I don't think that is grounds for outlawing if - especially not for minors - but I do think that some regulation can still be reasonable.

Boonton said...

Personally I'm not a fan of outlawing it either. If a licensed therapist performs a quack therapy on a patient I think the solution should be malpractice law and licensing boards that decide what is and isn't acceptable as a medical treatment. I have no trust at all that politicians would be able to keep up with changes to scientific knowledge so there would be no reason to expect them to be timely about changing the law should medical knowledge change.

As for whether or not it 'can work', no one here has produced a single study indicating that it works for even a minority of those who try it. Part of the reason may be that there is a hodgepodge of different ideas drifting around so getting a rigerously defined therapy to examine might be nearly impossible.

Gregory said...

I certainly do not agree with the governor's statement that homosexual acts are not sinful, but I do agree that sexual orientation is an innate and involuntary trait. I know, because I am gay and have been so for as long as I have been aware of my sexuality. I have also lived many years in Utah which is a bastion of sexual "conversion" therapy. I have known numerous LDS friends who were it's victims. I have heard first hand of the physical and deep psychological damage such quackery has inflicted on young men. It's easy to say that REAL professionals in this area who are dismissive of such "therapy" are all biased liberals, but that simply isn't the case. There is not an ounce of professionally reviewed scientific data to support the claim that sexual orientation can be changed. Heck even organizations that have long promoted it like Exodus International have now admitted what a failure it was and have apologized for the damage they did. I have a hard time believing that people seriously think that it can work or that sexual orientation is caused by environment or that it is a choice. It's like meeting someone who believes in alien abductions. It just baffles me.

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