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Some SSPX Are Dumber and Eviler Than I Thought

Seriously, what the hell were they thinking?

Defenders of traditional Catholicism want no part in this craziness.

A group of SSPX followers in Argentina held a disruptive protest in the Buenos Aires Cathedral of an interfaith service commemorating Kristallnacht of all things.

What the hell are they thinking?

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) — Ultra-traditionalist Catholics have openly challenged Pope Francis by disrupting one of his favorite events, a ceremony that he and Jewish leaders led in the Metropolitan Cathedral each year to promote religious harmony on the anniversary of the beginning of the Holocaust.

The annual ceremony brings together Catholics, Jews and Protestants to mark Kristallnacht, the Nazi-led mob violence in 1938 when about 1,000 Jewish synagogues were burned and thousands of Jews were forced into concentration camps, launching the genocide that killed 6 million Jews.

A small group disrupted Tuesday night's ceremony by shouting the rosary and the "Our Father" prayer, and spreading pamphlets saying "followers of false gods must be kept out of the sacred temple."

Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, named by Francis to replace him as Argentina's top church official, appealed for calm as others in the audience rose up to repudiate them, and the protesters were soon escorted out by police.

The large majority of Traditional Catholics and even SSPX supporters are not anti-Semitic but this is beyond the pale.


*subhead*What the hell are they thinking?*subhead*

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31 comments:

I am not Spartacus said...

It was wrong to interrupt the crummy service in a Cathedral consecrated to the Worship of the One True God but it was even worser (a word that can't be used too often) to be in open and rebarbative violation of Mortalium Animos.

Our Inertia Into Indifferentism has recently increased and invisibilium within the Hierarchy is even one Prelate who embodies Tradition to such an extent that it could be a force applied against that Inertia Into Indifference.

JB said...

I saw the video and heard them saying the rosary. Probably better to have done it outside.

Having said that, I don't know why these interfaith "services" can't be held outside the cathedral, in the parish hall or equivalent. What is crystal clear is that reciprocal displays of inclusion are rarely if ever celebrated inside synagogues or mosques. That's troubling.

Steve Dalton said...

It was wrong for the SSPX folks to disrupt the Holy Mass, but, IMO, it was worst to mix two religions that are polar opposites in the Mass. The service should have been for the Catholics killed by the Nazi's, not the Jews killed in the Shoah. Let the dead bury the dead.

Harry Seldon said...

" it was worst to mix two religions that are polar opposites in the Mass"

Is Judaism the most similar religion to Catholicism, or the most different?

That's not a matter of Dogma. That's a matter of opinion. Sometimes, when things like this happen, and you see people engaging in fruitless and anachronistic anti-semitism , you can feel some empathy for the council fathers in the early 1960's.

Each individual Catholic is faced with guilt and shame by the fact of the passion narrative. For some, this guilt and shame is transferred to the deicidal Jews. This has been going on for a long, long time in the Church, and it's a failure. This is a patently obvious historical fact. This is a failure that the Church is, imperfectly, trying to correct.

In this attempt at correcting the excesses of the past (and, what organization, even a purely human one, would not do right by correcting past mistakes?) we have seen many excesses. This is entirely typical of the Church, where mercy typically trumps justice. I'm sure there will be another pendulum swing in the future, as the generations of clergy are ordained, serve, and die. Inevitable.

However, to be hung up on this, is as Patrick says, just misguided. It's easy, from a comfortable armchair, to make excuses for the SSPX over this, and quote Mortalium Animos. That's not the reality. The reality is that the SSPX is, as a group, obsessed with the Jews. Go to their discussion fora. Talk to their priests. Talk to the laity who assist at their masses. Get to know them. This is a group that very, very rightly scares Jewish people.

Even leaving aside the politics of what it means to be a 'Holocaust denier', this is a group of people whose anti-semitism is all out of proportion to their Catholicism. Schismatic or not, they're largely crackpots. There's an ugly enough underbelly to the FSSP (past FSSP parishoner talking here) but the SSPX is staggeringly far around the bend on this issue, Freemasons, Communism, Fatima, the Mass of Paul VI, Vatican II, Papal Elections, and many other issues. Oh, and not to mention they are rebellion from Rome over the issue of sacramental faculties and their marriages and absolutions are invalid.

Personally, I think that any re-unification of the SSPX was destined to be a lie. I think formal schism is inevitable for all of these reasons. I do not think Traditionally-minded Catholics in union with their diocesan Bishops have ANY business defending the SSPX, particularly when they go tilting at windmills like this. They do the wrong thing, they do it for the wrong reason, and they do it gracelessly.

Jason W. said...

"There is no greater enemy of the Immaculata and her Knighthood than today’s ecumenism, which every Knight must not only fight against, but also neutralize through diametrically opposed action and ultimately destroy"
- St. Maximillian Kolbe

Here is a video of the event, it is not quite as described by the media. As can be seen, they were simply praying the Rosary when people tried to stop them. That is when the shouting began, not before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDvrHxjomvs

While I do not condone things happening that way for one minute, I think it is important to recognize that the Sacred Tradition of the Church does condemn interfaith prayer services and anything which puts other religions on par with the Catholic Church. This has been widely ignored by the modern magistgerium, but it is not any less true because of it. Its way past time for this sort of nonsense to stop and for our Bishops to act like Bishops. This type of ecumenism is completely false.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm

Considering all of that, it is certainly reasonable to ask why this interfaith prayer service (which was actually the Jewish celebration of Kristallnacht), which is not even supposed to happen, had to be held in a Catholic Cathedral, which is bound to scandalize those who actually hold to the teachings of the Church in the first place, and why they had the all huddled in front of the altar where the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass takes place in the second. Honestly, they didn't think anyone would have a problem with that? Do we not even consider the practice of prudence any more? Don't Bishops have some sort of responsibility to proclaim the truth of the Gospel and to avoid scandalizing the Faithful?

Furthermore, it was not the SSPX or some other ultra traditionalist group, it was a group of the Faithful from the Diocese itself, who were horrified at a Jewish celebration happening in the Cathedral right in front of the Tabernacle where God is truly and substantially present.

http://pagina-catolica.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/es-lo-que-el-papa-quiere.html#more

Jason said...

Bad timing for a protest and disrespectful to the people praying - it seems that it was a prayer service and not Mass, so in my opinion, what's the big deal? I think having it in the Cathedral shows in a way that all unity and peace can be found in the Church (Nostra Aetate, 4), not in a cafeteria or some other generic place. Unitatis Redintegratio (8) encourages ecumenical prayer - 'prayer in common' is much different from 'worship in common', which the Church warns us against.

Salvelinus fontinalis said...

How is it "anti-semetic" to continue true Catholic Dogma?? Did everything change all of the sudden with the garbage of Vat. II?
Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:

◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
◦“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
◦“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Harry Seldon said...

"Don't Bishops have some sort of responsibility to proclaim the truth of the Gospel and to avoid scandalizing the Faithful?"

Other than the SSPX, I don't notice anyone being scandalized.

So, Pat, how does it feel to have a readership that you don't agree with and can't connect with? This is the danger in courting 'Traditionalism'.




Harry Seldon said...

Oh, and, if you don't believe me about Traditional-Catholic anti-Semitism, just try to arrest one for drunk-driving...

sparrow said...

A couple of notes:
1)"the Jewish celebration of Kristallnacht" celebration is not the best choice of words - remembrance is much more accurate - think about it. It's just this kind of error that shows lack of interest in the others point of view.
2) Catholic Dogma is in no way threatened by showing respect to others of faith. Christ promised the Church would prevail , have a little faith in it.
3) In order to be good it's not enough believe what is right; you have to do what is right as well. In no way can this disruption be construed as "doing unto others as you would have done to you." Can you picture the rage if Jews interrupted a SSPX ceremony of any kind? The desire for conversion is achieved through friendship first. I know I'm a Catholic convert from Judaism.
4) SSPXers are extraordinarily similar to one set of famous Jews: the Pharisees. Their obsession with the outside of the cup and their extremely uncharitable hostility to the Pope creates a new scandal practically every quarter. Benedict bent over backwards for them and was rebuked and the disrespect for Francis is well ... I'll let you characterize it. I've lost sympathy for them, this is not the way to restore the Church.

Paul Zummo said...

The number of "this was kind of, sorta bad, but . . ." comments are depressing, but also completely unsurprising.

JB said...

Oh wonderful Harry is back to keep telling us that 2 of their sacraments are invalid. Thanks Harry. That's not what the post was about but we are all impressed with your nonstop antagonism to the people in this organization. For every Holocaust denier in SSPX (do we have a number?), there are an equal amount or far greater number of indifferentists in the post-V2 church.

Steve Dalton said...

@ Harry Seldon at 10:51 AM. Judaism is Anti-Christian. To hold a religious ceremony with those who reject and hate the savior of the world is an abomination. Jews should be prayed for, so they can become Christians, but no ecumenical services should be held with them. Let the Jews mourn their dead with their ceremonies, and let us mourn ours with the rites of the Church.

Harry Seldon said...

"Oh wonderful Harry is back to keep telling us that 2 of their sacraments are invalid. Thanks Harry."

It's still true. They're still in rebellion against the Church on this point. This is still dangerous for Catholics who think they are being validly absolved....or don't you believe valid absolution is important?

"That's not what the post was about but we are all impressed with your nonstop antagonism to the people in this organization. "

I stop every day from 6-6:30 for dinner.

"For every Holocaust denier in SSPX (do we have a number?), there are an equal amount or far greater number of indifferentists in the post-V2 church."

Yep, and when the indifferentists protest at Mass, I'll probably comment on that, too. Your point?

Lynda said...

Well said.

JB said...

Courtesy of pewsitter, SSPX has issued a statement. Apparently the rosary praying attendees were literally spat upon (will we get a condemnation of that from anyone?..... crickets....). I notice the site links to an article in which SSPX denounces anti-semitism.

http://sspx.org/en/anti-semitism-not-catholic

Harry Seldon said...

Steve Dalton wrote:

""Judaism is Anti-Christian. To hold a religious ceremony with those who reject and hate the savior of the world is an abomination. Jews should be prayed for, so they can become Christians, but no ecumenical services should be held with them. Let the Jews mourn their dead with their ceremonies, and let us mourn ours with the rites of the Church.""

As I noted, these excesses are excessive. They are being done by people who think they have to, in order to convince the world that all Catholics are not like the people who were protesting, or like Bishop Williamson. It was Nazis who perpetrated the abuses and genocide being remembered, not Catholics, but the real and regretful history of Catholic abuses needs atoning for and this is the occasion they take.

Are they going overboard to convince the world of the love of the Church for all people? Perhaps. If so, write a letter to the Bishop and suggest that the letter of the law is more important, because this is a valid position. If the Bishop rebuffs you because he disagrees, I'm sure your next move will not be to go and protest a Mass.

Harry Seldon said...

JB -

I hereby denounce any spitting whatsoever.

On the other hand, the statement "These people were spat upon while praying the rosary" and "these people were spat upon because they were perceived to be protesting racial toleration" are very different things.

Praying the rosary in public protest of actions in Catholic Cathedral is weird, weird thing. You can read whatever you like into it, but at very least it provides the handy headline for the tinfoil hat brigade "Rosary-prayers were spat upon" and then everyone can act outraged and curse the world and the 'Church of Vatican II' for 'spitting on the rosary'.

I have some reynolds wrap right here if your head feels chilly.


JB said...

I rest my case, Harry. You have reached new heights of casuistry in exercising your obsession with SSPX, i.e., it's really not so bad they were spat upon because they were "disrupting" the service. Let me stand aside as you fall down.

Harry Seldon said...

JB - No, I disagree. I'm sorry people were spit upon...but I recognize that they went in wanting to get spit upon and they, as one pseudopod sticking out of the tinfoil hat brigade, will now be reassured that they are right, and the 'New Church' hates them, and the rosary. What they have done is not designed to engage any person in any kind of a persuasive way. It was cynically designed to confirm them and their compatriots in their snide disdain for all of diocesan Catholicism.

I believe one would say it's a 'self-referential ideology'.

That's what Pope Francis calls it, anyway. And, sitting in the Casa Santa Marta in Rome, he is re-confirmed in his judgement that Traditionalism is not the way.

jon pressley said...

Im assuming a lot of the above have seemed to forget, or were never taught....

The Society of St. Pius X recalls the Catholic doctrine taught in the Encyclical Mortalium animos of Pope Pius XI, as it can be found on the official website of the Vatican:


2. …For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission.

Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule.


Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

Without any kind of resentment against any other religious community, the Society of St. Pius X adheres to this immutable doctrine and firmly disapproves of the planning of any interreligious ceremony in Catholic churches.


jon pressley said...

Im assuming a lot of the above have seemed to forget, or were never taught....

The Society of St. Pius X recalls the Catholic doctrine taught in the Encyclical Mortalium animos of Pope Pius XI, as it can be found on the official website of the Vatican:


2. …For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission.

Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule.


Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

Without any kind of resentment against any other religious community, the Society of St. Pius X adheres to this immutable doctrine and firmly disapproves of the planning of any interreligious ceremony in Catholic churches.


JB said...

Indifferentism is truly out of control.

JB said...

The woman spitting on them was not exactly Christ like. Crickets ..... She looked possessed to me. Hideous hatred. Look suck up to this dated 70s style Catholicism all you want but that this is getting any attention at all reveals a weird guilty conscience among the Catholic blogo mini popes

Rebecca Duncan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rebecca Duncan said...

this type of ecumenicism is just liberalism masquerading as catholicism. this isn't catholic. this is just liberalism as in, hey, you don't like obamacare, you're racist, hey you don't want other faiths celebrating their rites in a cathedral, you're anti semitic. whatever.

Howard said...

"The large majority of Traditional Catholics and even SSPX supporters are not anti-Semitic but this is beyond the pale." I'm not at all sure about that, particularly regarding SSPX. No doubt this is what you WANT to believe, but where is the evidence? In the absence of at least some reasonable survey, all we have to base a conclusion on are public statements by SSPX leaders and comments on blogs like this. The available evidence is against your conclusion.

Harry Seldon said...

Jon Pressley said:

"Im assuming a lot of the above have seemed to forget, or were never taught...."

No, you're wrong. Everyone involved in this discussion seems very aware of this. Assholes in combox just want to accuse anyone who isn't pro-SSPX of liberalism and indifferentism and cluck and shake their heads. JB, for instance.

In truth, we're just weighing two evils. The widespread indifferentism in the Church against the consumption of reasonable traditionalism by the tinfoil hat brigade.

The interest in tradition among young people is the best hope for the restoration of the Church in modern times. We don't want to see it killed by idiots, crazies, and bad actors. We don't want to see it smeared. We don't want the Pope to be re-confirmed in his dislike of tradition by ugly demonstrations.

Indifferentism, we're used to that. We've all lived with it. It is much less pervasive than it used to be. More and more young Catholics are being innoculated against it. If we can just keep you pack of rad-trad idiots from strapping the proverbial bombs to yourselves and exploding, maybe we can get some actual traction here.

As long you keep flirting with Anti-semitism, we can all kiss those chances goodbye.

Pat, again, are you happy and proud of the group of readers you've collected?

Maybe tell the tinfoil hat brigade to shove off? Just a suggestions.

Toby said...

Wow
I am a Polish/ German Catholic. My grandparents were Catholic in a mostly Jewish town. They spoke Yiddish and we ate Passover foods at Easter. They escaped during the First World War only to later find out that the Nazis had virtually wiped out their town and one of their cousins was killed in a concentration camp. My German side were Jews who escaped through France in the Early 19th century converting to Catholicism along the way.
Tell me agin why can't Jews and Catholics remember their dead together in a place of God???

David Madeley said...

As an SSPX attendee I couldn't see myself taking part in this kind of protest, which, as others have said, seems self-defeating. I would add two things:
1. Where I'm from we generally don't go in for grand gestures like this. In South America perhaps it's different - that goes both for the protest and the reaction to it.
2. Some of the comments against this protest, including the original article, assume that it is possible for Catholics to engage in a publicity campaign that raises awareness of the issue - syncretism in the ecumenical movement - without being accused of anti-semitism somewhere. That is far from obvious. How many times are peaceful pro-life demonstrations described as 'intimidating'?

Essentially, I would like to avoid seeing this protest either as the worst thing ever, or as something that every right-thinking traditionalist should be doing.




NoProblem said...

The truest definition ever of an "interfaith meeting"................................

"An inter-faith meeting is a place where a Jewish rabbi, who does not believe in the divinity of Christ, and a Protestant minister, who doubts it, get together with a Catholic priest who agrees to forget it for the evening." - Fr. Feeney

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