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Pope For All Disrespects The Extraordinary Form And Its Adherents

I can't say I am surprised, but I am disappointed.

Pope Francis has made what can only be called disparaging comments about the Traditional Latin Mass and its adherents.

Rorate Caeli reports that the Pope made comments to a Czech Bishop during his ad limina visit those who value and esteem the extraordinary form of the liturgy are merely caught up in a momentary fashion and thus as Pope he does not need to pay attention to them. Yup.

[Abp. Jan Graubner speaks:] When we were discussing those who are fond of the ancient liturgy and wish to return to it, it was evident that the Pope speaks with great affection, attention, and sensitivity for all in order not to hurt anyone. However, he made a quite strong statement when he said that he understands when the old generation returns to what it experienced, but that he cannot understand the younger generation wishing to return to it. "When I search more thoroughly - the Pope said - I find that it is rather a kind of fashion [in Czech: 'móda', Italian 'moda']. And if it is a fashion, therefore it is a matter that does not need that much attention. It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion. But I consider greatly important to go deep into things, because if we do not go deep, no liturgical form, this or that one, can save us."
Besides being completely wrong, that the Pope is so disrespectful of the reasonable desires of so many good and faithful Catholics it is staggering in its coarseness and dismissiveness.

Not to mention, such an attitude is diametrically opposed to the attitudes and pronouncement of his Holiness Pope Benedict XVI.

I know that I have probably misinterpreted our humble Pope's meaning and that the problem is me. For sure, the Pope seems to think that I am the problem. Please forgive me, I only speak Promethean.


*subhead*TLM mere fashion.*subhead*

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84 comments:

Ann Roth said...

Disturbing if true. So some guy said he said...confirmation and would be nice.

Connecticut Catholic Corner said...

I fear their is MUCH our current Holy Father does not understand about his flock...

http://connecticutcatholiccorner.blogspot.com/2014/02/does-holy-father-understand-us-at-all.html

the above is from his "sad Christians" homily - perhaps we need to pray that he gain WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING because right now... I think he's lacking in those areas.
JMO

Lynda said...

I think Mr Laurence England may need to update his "Pope Francis's Little Book of Insults - at That the Bones You Have Crushed May Thrill blog. I told him not to go for hardback!

Wendell said...

Well,... let us pray for the Holy Father. It wouldn't be the first time a pope has not seen nor heard clearly the promptings of the Holy Spirit. I'm not suggesting any theological error on the part of Pope Francis or any pope, nor am I suggesting even for a moment that I know with absolute certainty, in advance of any development at least, the will of God. In retrospect, however, I'm a perfect Monday morning quarterback. :-)

If, indeed, the celebration of the Extraordinary Form of Holy Mass is an essential part of the renewal of the liturgical life of the Church according to the will of God—and we surely need liturgical renewal, starting with a reclamation of the sense of the sacred—then we had better pray, and pray hard. It might be more useful to see this recent event as a challenge to our resolve to foster liturgical renewal in the Church.

I suggest we enlist the intercession of Saint Catherine of Sienna, a saint who knew how to get a pope's attention.

In the meantime, we should not allow our disappointment to get the better of us.

M. Prodigal said...

I hope you won't get fired. Folks who question Vatican II or the Holy Father, even if respectfully and legitimately, seem to be in the bull's eye.

gracem said...

why is this surprising???

Katharine B. said...

I think you could get a different aspect of what he said by reading it in the context of the last sentence. On the surface it can seem that the TLM movement is a bit of a fad. Besides, this quote is not straight from the Pope's mouth.

David Madeley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Madeley said...

Yes, it's ambiguous as to whether the last line is the Pope talking or the Czech Bishop who's reporting the Pope's words.

Talk is cheap. What matters are actions. We'll see whether the Franciscans of the Immaculate get a reprieve or not. Equally, we'll see what happens at the Synod on the Family. If Beach Ball Bergoglio makes a staunch defense of family values, most trads will put up with his liturgical views - after all Paul VI and JPII were no saints on that score.

justamouse said...

I totally see his point.

WHy? BEcause I was ripped apart this week, online, by a set of Traddies who thought that the NO was a horrible mass, and that there were total points for how Traddy you were.

Let me tell you, I love the TLM, I have even considered wearing a head covering for mass, I am drawn to the holy and the reverent. But I will NEVER be a part of a group like that. Ever. They were absolutely nasty and awful. This ex protestant has seen a lot of division. And it deeply saddens me to see that same divisive spirit alive and well in the Catholic Church.

Irenaeus of New York said...

This is pretty much in line with the previous statements of pope awesome the first.

Jason said...

I just find it bizarre that a man who was so deeply impacted by the Divine Liturgy in Argentina seems to dismiss beautiful liturgy in the West. I think it's best to wait for direct quotes from the Pope instead of hearsay, although it's sad that so many of us (myself included) can find these comments believable. Having married a woman from Costa Rica, there is a bigger desire in certain parts of Latin America for Masses that seem more like Charismatic prayer groups - tambourines, keyboards, acoustic guitars, more contemporary songs - far beyond my cup of tea. The last time I visited Costa Rica, during Mass the priest didn't even LOOK at the Missal until after his marathon homily. Don't understand why the Liturgy went so far south down South.

Sophia's Favorite said...

But...it is just a fashion, a particular "mode" of doing the mass. And "addiction" is not too strong a word. The Catholic Church was doing liturgy just fine for 1570 years before the Tridentine Mass—which I will not call the "Traditional Latin Mass" because it is no more traditional than the Novus Ordo for any part of the Church except the Diocese of Rome. More to the point, Anglicans had been doing their liturgy for 21 years before the Tridentine was published; the Book of Common Prayer was published in 1549. I'm sorry, I'm a Catholic, I don't regard something promulgated in the same year as a Spanish war with the Philippines and a French treaty with the Huguenots as being particularly old.

I have no particular beef against the Tridentine, but the fetish people make of it is nonsensical idolatry, basically the same thing as the Russian Raskolniky—and those who support the newer liturgy aren't burning anyone alive or deporting people en masse to Siberia, so kindly knock off the theatrics.

thepalmhq said...

^Sophia's Favorite, the "Tridentine Mass" did not just pop out of thin air in 1570. It was celebrated for many, many centuries prior. In fact, it arguably has the most venerable history of any rite of the Mass. So your views are based on an inadequate understanding of liturgical history.

If true I'd be saddened for Pope Francis to have that attitude toward those attached to the traditional Latin Mass. But of course it may be that when he's "searched more thoroughly" he's found some love for the liturgy and love for the Faith but perhaps also a fair dose of crabbing and carping, lack of joy and lack of charity. Not saying that there isn't plenty of that in your regular, local parish crowd. But as traditionally-minded Catholics who have the ancient liturgy we're supposed to be a leg up (by our own arguments). Not better, perhaps, but at least better off. The lack of joy and charity that some have experienced at times in traditionalist circles (see "justamouse"'s comments above) may be what's coloring his own views.

Allison said...

We've been Catholic for 9 years, coming from a pentecostal denomination where my husband was a pastor. I understand Pope Francis' comments, as well as the ex-protestant commenter above. I have found in my (admittedly few) years of being Catholic, that the Latin Mass people tend to be snobbish sorts. I don't know what to call myself. While I love the grand, old music, I find myself defending modern songs when the Latin people tell me that that type of music doesn't lift the mind to heaven. How do they know what's in my mind and where it's lifted? While I can't stand to see muffin tops and cleavage at Mass, I don't want to be where people roll their eyes at those without mantillas and long dresses. While I wonder about the logistics of hand-holding, I refuse to be counted with the people who say it takes away from the holiness of the Mass. Really? The Mass is corporate worship, meant to be with others; it's not my private morning prayertime. Anyway, I submit this comment as a saddened, confused convert.

Nan said...

Keep in mind three things: 1) He's a Jesuit; 2) ordained in 1969, and; 3) whatever we read has been translated and filtered through the lens of the Czech Abp.

I don't see it as disrespecting the older form of Mass but preferring the newer form and not understanding what the attraction is to the older form.

Different strokes for different popes.

wkndbeachcomber said...

Sophia's Wisdom - the peace of Christ be with you.

I have to correct this statement of yours: "which I will not call the "Traditional Latin Mass" because it is no more traditional than the Novus Ordo for any part of the Church except the Diocese of Rome."

That is simply not true. For instance, the mass in most of England for half a millennia before the Council of Trent was the Sarum Rite. It is available for download here:

https://archive.org/details/sarummissaledite00cathrich

It is in Latin and looks very similar to a 1962 missal. It was in fact the missal used to create the Common Book of Prayer during the Protestant revolt.

The rites used throughout the Continent (the Mozarabic and Gallican family of rites) were also in Latin. Latin, though it had mutated into the Romance languages, was still the language of law throughout the old empire, and the law of worship - the several rites that existed - were also in Latin from the beginnings of the Faith in most of Europe. Exceptions were the Celtic and Saxon rites, but they fell into disuse in most places in favor of the rites in Latin.

Your distortion of the affection and reverence held for the ancient Latin Rite is bewildering. Calling it an addiction, a fetish, a nonsensical idolatry is heart-wrenching to hear. I wonder if you are aware that the very same language was used during the Protestant revolt about the mass in Latin as Churches were burned, nuns beaten, and priests hung from their steeples. Many saints died to practice this form of the mass in England. The author of the hymn 'Faith of Our Fathers', Fr. Faber an Anglican convert, called it "the most beautiful thing this side of heaven".

And so it is that the love of the liturgy practices by our fathers is ridiculed... not by Protestants or Muslims or Atheists, but by fellow Catholics. Something is seriously wrong.

Rebecca Duncan said...

Not surprised. He's a modernist through and through.

John Byde said...

I agree with those who here who point out the snobbishness of the TLM crowd. I'm also a newish Catholic and go to a NO mass here in Switzerland. It's respectful, totally orthodox and yes, the priest's sermon enlarges upon the bible readings and castigates sin. Then I come on blogs like this and feel as though I'm a second class catholic because I don't know Latin. By all means have your TLM and I find it beautiful too, but those who defend it too stridently are missing the wood for the trees.

John Byde said...

I agree with those who here who point out the snobbishness of the TLM crowd. I'm also a newish Catholic and go to a NO mass here in Switzerland. It's respectful, totally orthodox and yes, the priest's sermon enlarges upon the bible readings and castigates sin. Then I come on blogs like this and feel as though I'm a second class catholic because I don't know Latin. By all means have your TLM and I find it beautiful too, but those who defend it too stridently are missing the wood for the trees.

Lynda said...

The traditional Mass in its various forms represents, embodies the ancient liturgical tradition of the Church. It is an integral part of the Faith, Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi has been startlingly borne out over the past few decades.

Anneg said...

Patrick, I don't trust. Rorate Coeli. They love taking offense. SSPX is an obnoxious presence in Argentina. This "quote" is 3rd or 4th hand. TLM people frequently act like Pharisees, chasing away even those who tend to agree with them, see comments above. Prayers for PF and for you. This isn't politics.

wkndbeachcomber said...

John Byde - the peace of Christ be with you.

When you write:

"Then I come on blogs like this and feel as though I'm a second class catholic because I don't know Latin..."

I have to ask, what in the world was posted on this blog to make you feel like you were a second class Catholic? Most of the people who go to the Latin Mass don't know Latin - which is perfect since the mass presents to us a mystery not meant to be pierced by our intellect but entered into in faith.

Fr. Blake has a rather nice post about this on his blog:
http://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2014/02/too-much-information.html

wkndbeachcomber said...

On the other hand, a mass with Pinocchio and a Jesus puppet *never* goes out of style...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwS9umpEkvs

M. Prodigal said...

Those who love the TLM must indeed be careful not to be self-righteous about it. Many FSSP preach about this! Charity must always be present or the form of liturgy has not formed the soul very well at all.

Apologies to those who feel 'second class'; there is no second class in the Church! Well, I take that back. Actually those who enjoy the TLM are second class these days. But that is okay. Let us be humble.

Elizabeth said...

I'm not surprised either, and I too am disappointed. The one bright spot to all of this is that he's made his views quite clear now, hasn't he? Up til now, there's been so many people poo-poo-ing the idea that the Holy Father is against Tradition or the Traditional Mass. Well, there you go.

Netmilsmom said...
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Kaf123 said...

I am so done with all the anti-Pope Francis rhetoric on this website. Until our Holy Father starts changing doctrine, I stand with him.

New Catholic said...

Anneg: "Patrick, I don't trust. Rorate Coeli."

Yes, please. Shoot. The messenger.

Katalina said...

The Pope was indeed made a priest in the late sixties and is a Jesuit but the problem is the comments he makes on all Conservatives like Cardinal Burke. As far as how people act who go to the Latin Mass, some can possibly snobby but you have that in any parish. Francis absolutely meant what he said privately. Who is he to JUDGE Traditional or Conservatives anyway?

Patrick Archbold said...

John Byde

How is that 'this blog" this snobbish blog makes you feel bad because you don't know Latin? That is a very interesting thing to say especially in light of the fact that neither of its authors speak latin or ever even use latin on the blog.

Maybe you were just making it up?

Stephen Korsman said...

I prefer the EF Mass. I just wish I had a time machine to look 200 years into the future to see if a) the EF Mass returns completely or is just a fashion, b) where human cloning goes, c) where medical ethics goes, d) what happens to abortion and euthanasia (how long after Hitler introduced euthanasia did it take for it to extend to Jews, and then war - will we have to wait 200 years?), etc.

Irenaeus of New York said...

Sophia,
The Tridentine Mass was not invented at the Council of Trent, the preexisting Roman rite was codified. Try reading Adrian Fortescue, "The Mass" for an in-depth study of the organic development of the Roman Rite.

Unfortunately, people like you mistake codifying for invention on a host of things from celibacy to private confession.

catholicdem said...

Such a small amount of people actually want the tridentine mass. In my area, one of the largest cities in the US, maybe a total of 1000 people attend it weekly. That includes diocesan, sspx, independent and sedevacantist. A portion of them are very gung ho about it though. They remind me of those weirdos who wait in line for Star Trek conventions.

Lynda said...

Most Catholics have not been taught the Faith and will not learn it from vast majority of new form Masses which don't represent the truths of the Faith. The vast majority don't even know about the traditional, Mass of the Ages because they have been denied this knowledge, along with knowledge of most of the Faith; and even among those who know about it, and would like to be able to attend it, it is not available to them.

catholicdem said...

Lynda,

My count includes independent, sspx, and sedevacantist chapels. You need to face facts. Your "pure" Church has no appeal to the overwhelming majority of people.

José Pio said...

The Pope has had strong things to say about traditionalists since he got elected. I'm traditional in my understanding of faith and in my practice of it but I can understand he's points. The smug and snobbish reaction to him from Traditionalists shows part of these folks problems. Quite a lot are really like the Pharisees. But. like in today's reading, Christ calls us to be even holier than them. Why? Because theirs was false holiness. it was all about external and scrupulous obedience instead of a genuine love of God. I don't question Traditionalists' love of God but I question their love for God's church and the vast majority of the clergy and faithful who do not find the missal of 1962 as a superior manifestation of the Divine. Our rituals are beautiful but they reflect the culture and understanding of the times. Jesus did not write the 1962 missal.

Mary De Voe said...

"It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion."
Did Pope Francis have to use the word 'addicted"?

John said...

Two thoughts come to mind:
1. For those who insist they won't ever attend the traditional Mass because of ugly attitudes from "traddies", best bear in mind that "moderns" have been equally virulent in their intolerance for anything remotely not modern for at least 30 years. Dismissing one side or the other because of bad attitudes merely perpetuates the battle.
2. If you want to proclaim that nobody WANTS the traditional Mass, a little perspective seems in order. Bear in mind that in the US, the bishops more or less strictly forbade the traditional Mass in 1970, insisting that everyone would celebrate the Novus Ordo, whether they wished it..or not. John Paul enabled bishops to ease that mandate in the early 80's, but most of my generation (I was born in '74) don't know of such an "indult Mass". I didn't know about it until I stumbled on a (illegal) traditional Mass in 2001. If "nobody wants it", most have been misguided against it for most of their lives. I suspect it'll take a few decades for stronger interest to take hold.

I think it'd be a grave tragedy for the old Mass to be neglected for good by the wider populace. Our apparent modern contempt for the practices of the past is..very sad.

Allison said...

Lynda reflects my points exactly about the elitist, snobbish Latin Mass people (If only I went to her Mass, I would have knowledge of the Faith). The "traditional Mass of the ages" spans 2000 years of time and spans the entire globe. I wonder what she'd think of the Samoan Masses we have here, complete with dancing up the aisle with the gifts (their ultimate posture of reverence)? See why I end up defending things that annoy my proper New England upbringing?

Bruno Mueller said...

I am quite surprised that this blog actually allows for dissenting. Quite a few people like the TLM but do not like the people there. That is exactly my experience. I have submitted many an article to a Trad outfit and they never publish it. It is a dangerous thing to outright oppose the pope just because he does not run after the Trads. While they are a few things I don't understand I must nevertheless say he is the pope not the Trads. I appreciate that this site allows opposing view points.

Pat said...

Pope Francis speaks only Spanish. I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt, since imprecise — and downright scandalous — paraphrasing and foreign language interpretations of his impromptu remarks have stirred up false controversies. That said, the Latin Mass is as valid as any other when an ordained Catholic priest is faithful to the prescribed rubrics. Of the Christians, first century observers noted, "See how they LOVE one another!" Today, is it, "See how THEY love one another?" We all need to examine our hearts and be converted anew to the Truth of Jesus Christ.

Lynda said...

Obviously you misread it entirely! The Mass of the Ages is not my Mass and I rarely get to attend it. Those who know the Faith know the traditional Mass represents the true theology and substance of the Faith - even if they can't attend it. Most Catholics do not have the opportunity to attend it, sadly. Most are not even informed about it.

Slick said...

The Pope is humble, because HE said so.

Slick said...

Kaf123, The point is that the pope can still do lots of damage to the Church and be insulting to many people without changing doctrine. You stand by his insulting and demeaning comments to traditionals and his "liberal-speak" which has earned him the popularity of the liberal media, gay groups, etc?

Lynda said...

The tack of stereotyping people who attend the traditional Mass is a tactic to avoid the issue, distract from the issue because they can't argue the issue. Smear people they posit as those who attend the Mass rather than address the issue of the sacred Mass itself.

Long-Skirts said...

FAITH
FASHIONISTA
"Old Mass? Just a kind of fashion!"


When Masses were mellow
Every Priest, a real fellow
No need to remember when
‘Cause ev’ry thing old is new again.

Daily, the Sacrifice of the Mass
What-a-ya know, it didn’t pass
We still pray now like they did then
Ev’ry thing old is new again.

Get out your rosary, your black and white veils
Let’s go backwards as the modern mess fails
And the Latin words you thought were long dead
You’ll find in your missal, English black, Latin red.

Don’t throw the past away
It’s your foundation as the new fashions sway
The True Faith’s intended, intended for men
When ev’ry thing old is new again.

So get your rosary, your black and white veils
Put it in backward when forward fails
Leave the new fashion designers alone
Be the Faith’s fashionista on your own.

And don’t throw the past away
Absolute Truth will forever stay
“Behold! I make all things new.” so then…
Ev’ry thing old is new again!

Lynda said...

The reason the liturgy has become so degraded and removed from the deposit of Faith, is that it was planned. There have been many enemies high up in the Church for many, many decades. There was even a big formal programme of infiltration of Catholic seminaries in the 1930s by the communists (there is a lot of information available on this, and how successful it was for the communists). Dissenters, heretics, apostates have controlled most seminaries, Catholic universities, schools, dioceses for decades. The smoke of Satan ... Malachi Martin and many others investigated and wrote about the infiltration by enemies of the Faith and how freemasonry and satanism got to high levels in the Church. The priesthood and the Mass were the focus of the first attacks - how people pray, worship determines what they believe, which determines how they live.

catholicdem said...

People like Lynda show how correct the Pope is in his statement to the bishop. Is Lynda aware of Pius XII's Holy Week changes that anticipated in many ways the mass of Paul VI? Is she aware of Pope Pius XI's encouragement of "dialogue" masses and his permission for the use of the vernacular? "Traditionalists" knowledge of liturgical history is generally sorely lacking.

Lynda said...

Most don't know about it, and even for those who do, it is not made available in most areas as it is supposed to be. SP and UE have not been implemented in most places. The vast majority don't know of the traditional Mass, never mind that they have a right to have it made available to them. Most of the bishops have failed them by not teaching and preaching the whole of the Deposit of Faith, and how the traditional Mass represents the truths of the Faith. The widespread degradation of the Mass has caused a majority to abandon the Faith since the 1960s. The new Mass as implemented is not even any way close to the Mass of SC of Vatican II Council, which maintained most of the elements of the Mass that most people associate with the traditional Mass.

wkndbeachcomber said...

Does anyone else find it ironic that the whole Vatican II - era push for the Novus Ordo had its theological underpinning in the "Ressourcement", an attempt to 'return to the sources'; i.e., the Patristic age and rediscover the Church Fathers? The introduction of novelty was performed under the guise of a return to old traditions. Now that those novelties have wiped out generational memory, any talk of returning to tradition is scorned as fashion by those very same change agents.

The Greek root of the word διάβολος means to insinuate things against; to put in a bad light, slander, calumniate. The Latin word is diabolus; in English, diabolic.

Lynda said...

And the Mass as implemented is nothing like what was proposed by Vatican II (Sacramentum Concilium).

Lynda said...

Yes, I'm aware. But again you are distracting from the issue. Ad hominems are not an argument. Sacrosanctum Concilium of the VII Council proposed some use of vernaculars but maintenance of Latin for most of the Mass, and confirmed that Latin is the language of the liturgy in the Latin rite of the Church. Ad orientem and Gregorian chant were confirmed as the norm.

Anneg said...

New Catholic. You are not the messenger, just a blogger, and rather grumpy usually.
Please quit believing everything that pope Francis said 3rd or 4th hand in another language. The translations have been awful. I just try to be a faithful Catholic and believe that our traditions are important to preserve, but we also have to learn to evangelize, as some one said, and LOVE one another.

Lynda said...

And as has always been taught by the Church, innovations can never be part of the Tradition of the Faith.

Patrick Archbold said...

anneg,

All your name calling is in the name of love? Splinter meet log.

Unknown said...

It is sad indeed to read the animosity of those who write here of their fellow Catholics. If you do not have a desire for the Tridentine Mass, the"Mass of All Times" the Extraordinary Form of Holy Mass, then just do not go. If it is onerous for you to wear a mantilla then don't, leave that for the rest of us who do, As an 'oldie', I never cease to feel awe when I see the numbers of young, educated men and women who have 'discovered' and attend the Latin Mass. Here in Australia, as I remember in Canada, that is where the numbers are growing. Contrasting that to my attending N.O. Mass in Ireland some months ago, and in the Nederlands, and Spain, (Latin Mass scarce thanks to many bishops disobeying the direction of Pope Benedict XVI)), hardly any young people attend any more. That is the reality. I attend N.O. on week days, but not on Sundays because of the disrespectful noise and distractions and choice of music. I drive close to an hour in traffic to get to the Tridentine on Sundays. Many others drive much longer distances with their children too. Young people are meeting and marrying in the traditional, having their babies....and so the faithful grows in number. We pray our Holy Father, Pope Francis, will have the Cardinals and Bishops inform him of the faithfulness of those whom he is reported to say follow 'fashion'. St. Catherine of Sienna and Venerable Pope Pius XII, intercede for the Church given to us by Christ Himself.

Unknown said...
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Unknown said...
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Allison said...

Innovations like what? Tradition with a lowercase "t?" The Latin Mass is not first century worship so it must have, at one time, been new itself. My only point of contention is the elitism I see (maybe like Pope Francis?), not the value or validity or whatever the word is (Remember, I'm new at this.).

Anneg said...

Pat, no names, just adjectives. Are you not grumpy? I love this blog and read every day. And you complain a lot about Pope Francis. That is grumpy (adjective) .

Anneg said...

Pat, no names, just adjectives. Are you not grumpy? I love this blog and read every day. And you complain a lot about Pope Francis. That is grumpy (adjective) .

New Catholic said...

Thank you for saying the obvious in that comment, Mr. Archbold.

Lynda said...

That's true about Ireland. I live there.

Nate C said...

A lot of straw men being put up in these comments. Straw man #1: Traditionalist Pharisee. Straw man #2: Traditionalist Snob. Straw man #3: Bilingual Traditionalist. Straw man #4: Mantilla Nazi. Straw man #5: Traditionalist Rumor Monger. Straw man #6: Sedevacantist Traditionalist. Straw man #7: Non-traditional Traditionalist. Straw man #8: Novus-Ordo-hating Traditionalist. Straw man #9: Divisive Traditionalist. Straw man #10: Convert-killing Traditionalist. Whew, that's a lot but I bet there's more!

M. Prodigal said...

Ah, but some of us are blessed to have choices in the liturgies that are all under the umbrella of the Roman Catholic Church. On a Sunday I can attend a Novus Ordo Mass (properly offered too), a TLM, or a Byzantine Rite. Today I went to the Novus Ordo. But I will say that one gets spoiled at the TLM with the reverence that form of worship inspires. There is quiet for prayer before and after Mass. The people dress respectfully like they know they are in the presence of God. The priest seems to always have a teaching in his homily which I greatly appreciate. The Novus Ordo Mass this morning did not have nice music and the incredible explosion of noise right after Mass hurt my ears. Next week I can attend the TLM and will look forward to it in this time of the season leading up to Lent. I embrace this reverent liturgy. But I am active in my Novus Ordo parish and love the priests we have in town. I am a lucky one! And the trads are not snobs!

Elizabeth D said...

I love Rorate Caeli blog. I think sometimes they go too far. But they are always interesting. However I am in a schola and I kept asking for the hymn Rorate Caeli during Advent and the schola director (a very young person) would not let us sing it, apparently because of the blog! We did not happen to have High Mass the Sunday when that is the introit.

I am 35. It would be hard to find someone less interested in what is the fashion. I have always been different. I like the old Mass because that is the only place we are allowed to have so much Latin and the chant which Vatican II says is a treasure of inestimable value which is supposed to have pride of place in the Mass, and because it is very similar to the Mass as experienced by most of my favorite Saints, giving very preciously greater insight when I read their writings and their life. And in getting to know the old Mass I have been fascinated how many Catholic cultural things made sense to me now. The "Tridentine" Mass has shaped our culture for many centuries. I understand the Mass overall better as a consequence of knowing the older form of the Mass. I definitely understand what changed in the Mass after Vatican II in a way that no amount of reading could have taught me.

It is kind of baffling why someone would conclude interest in the old Mass by young people is just some kind of "fashion". Interest in the old Mass in my area basically reflects a cross section of age groups. The young people who attend are not homogenous in their reasons for being attracted to it. There are not enough of them and they do not form a cohesive social group to call it a fashion among them. I think quite a lot of people really do not like and are distracted by modern-culture elements of other Masses available, people appreciate the "timeless" quality of how they experience the old Mass. Some of the young families believe it gives their kids a stronger foundation in Catholic identity because it is so different from any kind of protestant worship. Devout Catholics my age are so spooked by awareness of how everything went crazy in the "question everything, change everything" time during and after Vatican II and such a vast number of people fell away, so many feel the old Mass is a touchstone of and even a help for a more secure and untroubled Catholic Faith, something that wasn't a product of the time of madness.

The Bedards said...

There is and has been so much abuse in the Latin and NO Mass, I think the Pope is spot on!

Magnus said...

Another translation tempest in a teapot. I'll wait for the Pope himself to address it instead of relying on 3rd or 4th parties who are trying for 3 seconds of notoriety by trying to inflate another translation issue into a false controversy.

New Catholic said...

"I am in a schola and I kept asking for the hymn Rorate Caeli during Advent and the schola director (a very young person) would not let us sing it, apparently because of the blog! We did not happen to have High Mass the Sunday when that is the introit."

A very levelheaded Schola Director, Elisabeth D.!... Ah, the "tolerant people"... no group is more intolerant.

wkndbeachcomber said...

TLM Fashion in song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D45oa-rR6bU#t=80

via the sensiblebond via Fr. Ray Blake

Long-Skirts said...

Mary De Voe said...
"It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion."
Did Pope Francis have to use the word 'addicted"?"

THE
GOSPEL
NARRATIVES

For neurotic-psychotic
“Attached” to the old,
We give you a hireling
To take care your fold.

No need for the shepherds,
Who seem so much keener,
They’ll tempt you with dreams
Of pastures much greener

And say not to mimic
Past, tolerant-barters,
So heads were cut off,
Who could dialogue with martyrs?

The shepherds tell fables,
‘Bout a man, hated, hailed,
Like you, just “attached”,
Don’t believe He was nailed!


Salvelinus fontinalis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael said...

Is it possible to read these comments from Pope Francis such that the fashion is not merely having a great love of the TLM, but to have such a great distaste for the NO that they wish to see it abolished?

Honest question; because this is how I initially interpretted the comments.

Bornacatholic said...

There has always been only one Mass and the Mass celebrated, presumably in Aramaic, by Pope Saint Peter is no different than the Mass celebrated by Pope Francis.

The Mass is the action of Jesus offering Himself to God, as both Priest and Victim, (through the Priesthood He instituted) as an act of propitiation and we redeemed Christian Catholics offer the the action of our own lives ( and our petitions, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving) which is swept-up in the action of Jesus and, thus, made an acceptable sacrifice to our Triune God and graces (great and miniscule) are realised by each of us to the extent to which we are disposed to receive them.

And how, pray tell, can we be said to be disposed to receive Grace when captious questions of secondary importance predominate in the various subgroups of Catholics against which Pope Benedict XV authoritatively warned ?

There is a Mass of all time but it is not the one claimed by Mons Lefebvre who settled on a transitional Missal of two years existence as "the Mass of all time."

The Rise of the Online Trad Machine has resulted in a grave chasm that now exists between far too many of those who identify themselves as different from all other catholics (actions warned against by Pope Benedict XV) and in that chasm can be heard the repetitious echoes of unsound claims and in far too many places - especially in the sspx schism - there are generations of Christians being raised to either hate or mistrust the Divinely-Constitued Papacy; worse, in the sspx chapels, many are being taught that Holy Mother Church has taught error and that an Ecumenical Council can be ignored.

If that is Tradition, it is protestant Tradition.

Suave Knight said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deoacveritati said...

We better pray the Lord will help us during Francis Pontificate because he will bring so much trouble to the Church.

Sophia's Favorite said...

@thepalmhq: Notice I said it is not traditional "except for the Diocese of Rome". The Iberian "Mozarabic" liturgy was older, and while Trent's grandfather-clause of "over 200 years old" meant it was not actually banned, it received absolutely no support (much like happened to the Tridentine after Vatican II)—exacerbated by the fact the post-Trent Church was increasingly Italian-dominated, and Italians were (and to an extent are) extremely bigoted against Spaniards.

@wkndbeachcomber: Please notice that my name is Sophia's Favorite. Peace to you to; but did you notice I specifically said the Tridentine? I very specifically did not say "Traditional Latin Mass". The Use of Sarum is not the Tridentine. The Mozarabic Rite is not the Tridentine. I am not saying that Latin was suddenly imposed on the Church by Trent, and I frankly find the implication I could ever think that to be insulting. I know far too much history to say anything so inane. I am saying that the liturgy of the Roman diocese was imposed on the whole rest of the Church, in order to simplify administration and the training of priests. That would be because that was the express purpose of the liturgical reform enacted by Trent.

I would love to get Mass in the Sarum. More, I would love to get the Novus Ordo in Latin—a language I am quite capable of following the liturgy in (I speak both French and Spanish and am an amateur linguist), but the Novus Ordo is the liturgy I know. But if I want it in Latin, in the language of the Church for well over a millennium and a half? "No, well, if you want Latin, you have to be content with a liturgy you don't know. The Novus Ordo isn't supposed to be in Latin, it's not like the Council documents say precisely the opposite, or anything."

RE: Your later comment about "Ressourcement"...exactly. I see no difference between the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo; from my perspective they are both equally attempts by antiquarians to reconstruct a hypothetical original liturgy. But one is the Mass I actually know, and the other is not. I would like to get the Mass I know in Latin—a language, again, that I have little difficulty following. I cannot have that, because people cannot grasp that "Latin Mass" means "a Mass in Latin", not one particular way of doing it that was published half a century after Spain conquered the Aztecs.

@Irenaeus of New York: People like me? You have no idea what I am like, if you think I am not aware of all the history involved. I am well aware of the history of celibacy; I regularly annoy the ignoramuses you mistake me for by pointing out the hierarchy of the Orthodox Churches has always been celibate (it's only the secular clergy—which is what "people like me" call parish priests—that ever weren't).

But the fact is Trent imposed the diocesan use of Rome on the whole of the Latin Church. The few uses "grandfathered" in because their then-current form was older than 200 years received precisely zero official support, and the regions using them were made to feel like mission-territory and converted heathens, if they weren't simply openly discriminated against (again, Italians were and to a degree are bigoted against Spain). The Spanish colonies, despite the Mozarabic Rite being as old as Isidore of Seville, used the Tridentine Rite. That's really all that needs to be said. Trent represented a centralization of influence and culture within the Church; in many ways for good, but in other ways for bad.

David Madeley said...

Sophia,

Would you like to comment on this wikipedia article? "The Mozarabic Rite is the second-best attested liturgy in the Latin Church in terms of preserved documentation...The first is, of course, the Roman Rite, which, to encourage unity of faith and worship, generally replaced the Mozarabic in Iberia from about 1080." I don't accept Wikipedia as Gospel, but this suggests a gradual handover from the Mozarabic rite to the Roman rite. This is not my are so I'm open to correction.

I think the word tradition can be misleading - on its own it can just mean any custom - morris dancing, or the like. What Catholics should be careful to preserve is Apostolic Tradition - whatever is passed on (tradere) by means of Apostolic Succssion to the whole Church. I maintain the Tridentine Rite is part of our Apostolic Tradition, even if it is not embedded in the small-t traditions of each and every place. It comes to us through the passing on of the Rite from Bishop to Bishop, first in Rome, then later in the whole Church. Perhaps it would be more precise to say it is part of our patrimony. If the imposition was draconian, that was because Trent felt that it was necessary to maintain faith in the Real Presence - you might disagree with them about the method, but the motive was sound. The same cannot be said of Annibale Bugnini, who wanted a text which was ambiguous as possible, for ecumenical purposes. That's no reflection on people who go to the novus ordo, but it should ring alarm bells.

Reluctant Pilgrim said...

Listen to you all. You are all LOST. Superfluous, petty and misleading talk and once again absolutely none of it whatsoever to do with Jesus or the Word of God. But no wonder you're lost, for you are the blind being led by the blind. Just more Papal pontificating and prancing about town like a fancy clown. And while you all discuss the ins and outs and minutiae here and there of Catholic doctrine, who said what and why, you've thrown out the baby with the bathwater and missed the point entirely. Political. Putrid. Pathetic. Not only that, but exceedingly dangerous and folly. You are all caught up with the doctrines of men and he (your Cardinal Imbroglio) is leading you up the garden path (or should I say down a bottomless pit). As Yaweh lives and in the name of Yaheshua.

David Madeley said...

After reading that, I'm certainly lost. Where are you coming from? On the one hand you hint at us being overly querulous - petty, discussing the ins and outs and minutiae of Catholic doctrine - and then you hint at us being overly docile - being led up the garden path, the blind leading the blind etc. It can't really be both, can it?

These are important topics, and they need discussing, in their proper place and proper measure. No-one on this discussion forum spends their whole life on here. There's people here I disagree with but they have families and responsibilities the rest of the time. It may not look like it but we are sharpening one another intellectually - highly necessary in an age of mass propaganda. I'm not saying there are no risks here, and it's up to everyone to discern whether this sort of thing is an occasion of sin. If that's true for you then by all means abstain from internet use.

Salvelinus fontinalis said...

The novus ordo mass is truly different than the TLM. Personality, the novus ordo killed my faith and if it weren't for the TLM I'd still be out there flailing

Salvelinus fontinalis said...

The novus ordo mass is truly different than the TLM. Personality, the novus ordo killed my faith and if it weren't for the TLM I'd still be out there flailing

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