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Must Watch: The Triumph of The Spirit of Vatican II In One Video

The triumph of the destroying Spirit of Vatican II is neatly encapsulated in this neat little video from Good Shepherd Catholic Church in Menomonee Falls, WI.

As parody, it would be over the top. As reality, it is the synthesis of all banality. Everybody please tell me how things are getting better, please.


Note**Good Shepherd has made private the original video. Fortunately, there is another copy downloaded in anticipation of this happening.

Deacon Sandy has responded to the criticism here. You can read it here.

 

I have taken down the video.  See why here.

Annnd the video is back.  See why here.

 


UPDATE
There are other troubling things on their website as noticed by Matthew Balan

For their gay outreach, they make this statement. "This ministry works to help the LGBT community find and take it's rightful place within the Catholic community. "

What exactly is the rightful place of the LGBT community in the Church as it differs from the rightful place of any sinner?

And they link to Call To Action, a group where membership is grounds for excommunication in some places.

Most Reverend Jerome E. Listecki
Archbishop of Milwaukee
archbishoplistecki@archmil.org

*subhead*The synthesis of all banality.*subhead*

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82 comments:

Pedro Erik said...

No kneelers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my God.

Pedro Erik said...

Bread????

They are really crazy.

Marana tha!!

gracem said...

yuck!

Maureen said...

Remind me never to visit Menomee WI.

Gail Finke said...

I'm going to be the contrarian here. These folks are still in the Church! That's a good thing! While this kind of thing might drive many of us nuts that is not really important. Over the centuries, all sorts of wacky things bordering on heresy have been done in parishes and even entire swaths of the world. But they remained in the Church. Now, I do think that things like bowing to the assembly (!) need to be ended, but again, over the history of the Church lots of weird things went on, sometimes in large areas, sometimes for many decades. In itself that is not alarming. The reason much of this video is surprising because it's NOT what is done in other parishes. It is, as the video says, "unique."

Patrick Archbold said...

Gail

It is not that unique. What is unique is that they put up a stupid video about it.

A video in which they admit to the use of invalid matter for the holy Eucharist.

Mary De Voe said...

Fr. Richard never said: "GOD". People worship God through Jesus Christ, the Real Presence on the altar. Encouraging conversations excludes the people trying to pray. People kneel to God. The president is only a human being. No kneelers is anti religious. What nuts.

Patrick Archbold said...

Mary

That is Deacon Sandy. Fr. Richard is tipped for the video.

Fr. Shawn P. Tunink said...

I've got a really cool idea that we could do at the beginning of Mass to recognize the presence of Christ in the congregation and have the congregation recognize the presence of the Spirit in the priest...it's kind of like the bowing thing...the priest could say "The Lord be with You" and the people could respond "And With Your Spirit." That would be so neat.

Mary's Child Mariann said...

I think this dissident parish would fall under Archbishop of Milwaukee. Have you contacted him regarding this? Perhaps everyone should? Additionally, have you shared this with ChurchMilitant.tv? Thanks for sharing this disturbing post. We cannot act for the good of their souls if we are not informed. God bless you this day and always. Let's contact:
archbishoplistecki@archmil.org

Suzanne Carl said...

One word: Apostasy. I would say heresy, but he still proclaims himself to be a Catholic.

Pattymelt said...

I have a feeing that this parish celebrates a valid Eucharist, even if leavened bread is used instead of the wafer. At first I wondered if Deacon Sandy was a woman, but it is Deacon Sandy who is speaking. And Deacon is the Parish Administrator with two priests who are labeled "Assisting Priest" rather than Pastoral Minister. Our parish before being closed had a lay administrator and a priest Pastoral Minister for liturgies, confession, etc. True a lot of what is touted seems like an evangelical Protestant experience, but my bet is that it is still very much Catholic. He acknowledged the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It may be that they are trying to draw back some fallen away Catholics and raise their attendance before their parish is closed. Just speaking from experience here about parishes being closed.

Adrienne said...

Dear Lord - can't have any of that silly silence stuff. People might, just might do something like, uh - pray.

He sets the world record for the most incorrect usages of the word "unique."

@ Father Tunink - outstanding idea!

John B said...

@ Father Tunink - subtle but effective;) So happy you're with us in NE Kansas.

@ Adrienne - You reminded me of a great movie quote:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"
Inigo Montoya

disco85 said...

To paraphrase Deacon Sandy, "the thing that makes us unique among catholic parishes is that we aren't catholic."

Fr. Jay Finelli said...

Nothing like breaking all of the Liturgical norms. That's called disobedience.

ThereWasADream said...

This is a cancer.

Scott Eric Alt said...

Maybe the misuse of Vatican II here, people using Vatican II as an excuse for craziness, but where did Vatican II authorize any of this? The real problem is the abuse of Vatican II and myths about Vatican II.

Patrick Archbold said...

Scott,
Did you notice my calling it "the spirit of VII?"

EuropeanCatholic said...

Watching open mouthed and wide-eyed

And here is the Christmas Eve Mass from 2013: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoTVyh8dtL0

Tom Ryan said...

I got on my knees and thanked God for Summorum Pontificum. This place is just too fashionable for me.
http://youtu.be/2TFTl1jG6Y4

hughosb said...

But it IS a parody... isn't... it... please... somebody... ?

**sigh**

phlogiston1667 said...

Bread? As in, leavened bread? That's invalid matter. Leavened bread= invalid matter= no consecration=Protestant. Very simple. No ifs, ands, or buts. No "feelings" change this.

Aged parent said...

I hope no one is planning to hold his breath waiting for Archbishop Listecki to do anything about this. As one who lives in the archdiocese of Milwaukee, Rome's dumping ground for mediocre prelates, I can assure you that His Excellency will not be overly troubled by this.

Adrienne said...

@ disco85 - You made me LOL!!!

@JohnB - Thanks for reminding me of that great quote. I am completely OCD about the incorrect usage of unique. My mother pounded it into my head that there was no such thing as "most" unique or any other modifiers. It makes me cringe.

wkndbeachcomber said...

Why the raised eyebrows? They are simply making a mess.

There will be no talk of, much less an actual FFI-style apostolic intervention here. If the CDF sends them a letter, they have prior papal permission to blow it off and to 'keep moving forward'. As long as they're not counting rosaries, or addicting themselves to 1500 year-old liturgical fashion, they are just fine.

My advice to them, however, is to just come out and call themselves Protestant. They'd have a an excellent chance of getting their very own custom Francis video, Sandy could trade-up his diaconate for brother-bishophood, and this upscale parish wouldn't have to send any money to the diocese.

Tom Ryan said...

phlogiston1667:

illicit not invalid in the Western Church. But, it's still dumb

Susan P. said...

I respect the office of the president of the U.S., I don't worship him. Presumably as a Catholic, I do more than respect Christ; I worship him and for worship I can fall to my knees.

Anneg said...

If they want their parish to be distinctive and not close, how about Eucharistic adoration, maybe before mass, Eucharistic processions, communal prayer for the parish and the world.
Btw, leavened bread in the Roman Rite is illicit but not invalid. It is certainly disobedient. I belonged to one of these parishes for a while in Maryland. Recently I went back for a funeral. I kneeled anyway.

Scott Eric Alt said...

Patrick,
Yes, I noted that. It was a more general observation, but I wasn't clear about that.

Jason said...

Man worshiping man. Sad.

Alphonsus Jr. said...

Not to worry. Nothin' to see here, folks! They're in "full communion."

On the complete absurdity of "full communion," search the net for this essay:

Gnostic Twaddle, by Christopher Ferrara

Kenny R said...

Most of the stuff seems pretty tame but soliciting prayer petitions from those in the congregation- I don't know. Having witnessed it several times before in only small groups tells me that this train could run off the tracks quite easily.

Bornacatholic said...

Gnostic Twaddle, by Christopher Ferrara is jejune silliness that vitiates the ontological reality of One Faith, One Baptism.

Of course there is such a reality of partial and full Communion. Any non-Catholic person who is Baptised is, by that Sacramental Action, in partial Communion with the Church; and from there, the person can, and should, move to full communion.

The ironic truth is that The Vennaris, Matts, Ferraras, and Bishop Fellays of the world are in partial Communion; that is, they are, objectively, in partial union with both protestants andThe Catholic Church :)

Wendell said...

"We enhance the Liturgy... with audio and even video... ."

Perhaps they should watch how the Mass should be celebrated. And listen to some Palestrina while they're at it.

Good grief, someone please send these people a Catechism and GIRM and, for starters, sit them down to study them both in detail.

Judy said...

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

phlogiston1667 said...

Tom Ryan: Can 924 Sec. 2 - "The bread must be made of wheat alone..." Alone. As in no yeast, no sugar, no milk, etc., etc. etc. And if that isn't enough, Can 926 - "In accord with the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the celebration of the Eucharist whenever he offers it." And in case that's not enough, from the bishops' conference - "Pastors and the faithful are reminded that for bread to be valid matter for the Eucharist, it must be made solely of wheat..." (http://www.catholicceliacs.org/Bishops.html)

Donna M said...

Patrick nailed it!

What a spectacle! What touted staged production! What direction and coreography! Lights, Camera, Action!

Looks like they have evolved beyond the Holy Cross, beyond obedience to the Holy Mass, of either kind.

They rewrite their own ticket and invite others to do it too. But, this is by far the worse.

Invalid matter for Eucharist!
Must be unleavened, consisting of only flour and water.
If there is present ANYTHING else, (cake yeast, oil, sugar...) NO Transubstantiation, no Catholc Mass. No Divine Presence! Jesus isn't comin' to town!

New age concepts right in your face. By their standard, Jesus isn't even present in a tabernacle, he is in the congregation when they all meet up and worship each other. Must be nice to have eliminated the need for confession, too, but then again, they are not receiving the true body and blood of Jesus. Only a very pathetic imitation of. This isn't just an apostasy, this is an insult!

How long will it last? Sooner or later, they declare themselves other. Like the new universalist, unified, evangelical, not traditional, modernist....catholic church of america.
We have them in San Diego.


Bring on The Holy TLM, or a decent NO.

Mary's Child Mariann said...

I watched the Christmas Eve soft show...this Deacon needs to return to his manhood. I am so sorry to hear that yet another Archbishop will continue to allow this Christian service vs. Catholic Holy Mass to continue since so many souls are at stake (at least 70 because wasn't that the number of lay ministries they offer). May our Lord have mercy on us all and forgive us for such grave errors committed in disobeying His command.

elm said...

Just shoot me now. I'm done.

Aloysius Gonzaga said...

It's called making people feel WELCOME. That is something trads don't like to do. It is something that needs to be done more. And that parish is doing it.

Donna M said...

Oh! Its a group touchy, feely thing!
Belief through the litmus test of social approbation, consensus and approval.

In the timely words of a simple sage,

"Just shoot me now, I'm done!"

notionsromaines.com said...

They sound like they are on their way to becoming Episcopalians!

How is this even allowed? (Who am I to judge after all...)

wkndbeachcomber said...

"As you know, I have many friends in the world who are artists, poets, authors, editors, etc. Now they are well able to appreciate our chant and even our Latin. But they are all, without exception, scandalized and grieved when I tell them that probably this Office, this Mass will no longer be here in ten years. And that is the worst. The monks cannot understand this treasure they possess, and they throw it out to look for something else, when seculars, who for the most part are not even Christians, are able to love this incomparable art." - Thomas Merton, 1964

http://vultus.stblogs.org/index.php/2014/02/home-from-the-liturgical-thirty-years-war/

Susan P. said...

To be fair, he didn't say leavened bread. Perhaps the people making the bread are using only wheat and water. It would look different than the hosts received at most parishes and people might question it.

Michael said...

Oh gosh, I could feel my testosterone levels drop to redline levels as the video progressed. My wife is going to be ticked at you tonight for posting this, Patrick.

FJH 3rd said...

looks like they have blocked it, I hope someone was able to grab a copy before they password protected it.

Robert said...

When I first clicked on the video last night, my 8 year old walked into the room....I turned it off because I was certain that I'd have some 'splainin' to do if he saw any of it. Now, today it's no longer available.

Mack Hall, HSG said...

"Greeter."

"Worship space."

"Seventy ministries."

"Parish-director model"


All this drivel is Protestantism, only without a rattlesnake or two.

This morning one of our deacons employed some of the same babble - now I know where he's going.

Ah, well, the bishop has got our money through this year's Bishop's Faith Appeal, so he can decorate some more instead of serving God and God's people.

Kelly Groen said...

Hello.. I was just wondering why you guys all care about what people who don't know do or how they worship. Do any of you actually live in Wisconsin or attend this parish? If so and you are concerned, I would invite you to talk with the deacon or the bishop about your concerns. If not and you don't plan to visit Milwaukee, Wisconsin, it seems the gracious and adult thing to do would be to ignore it. So a kooky liberal parish is being kooky and liberal. This has nothing to do with you, your parish, or your salvation. Leave them alone and request that they do the same for you

Dad29 said...

All that stuff began before Weakland's time under the direction of a priest named Eschweiler. Actual Catholics would SPIT that name out, and still do.

By the way, you will never find the tabernacle in that edifice. It's there--but certainly not in the sanctuary, nor even 'cleverly hidden' in a wall of the nave. Nope. It's in a room all by itself and you damn near need a map to find it.

Dad29 said...

And why did Eschweiler get away with this?

Because his family was wealthy--and also were architects for multiple local Catholic churches.

Athelstane said...

"It's called making people feel WELCOME."

It makes me feel profoundly alienated. Worship of self usually does.

Mary's Child Mariann said...

@Kelly, perhaps we care for this is the mystical body of Christ. Perhaps we care for this is an abomination against the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Savior of the World. Perhaps we care because all sins are sins against His Body. Perhaps you would understand that souls are being lost through perversions. Fast, pray, and email the Bishop until you are blue in the face.

Kelly Groen said...

@Mary's Child Mariann

So Jesus who lived in first century Palestine as a poor worker and was horrifically crucified is now such a delicate flower that he cannot stand people using pita bread and audio visual presentations at Mass. Perhaps he has a more accepting attitude than you and is glad that people come and worship him.

I'm sorry.. But you don't live in Menomonee Falls, WI and don't go to church at this parish. Therefore, you don't get a say in how they run it. As just a normal Catholic, I am getting tired of the liturgical wars. I really don't care what vestments the priests is wearing and whether there is an appropriate amount of lace and I don't care what music is used and how the altar is set. I hate to tell you but in the Global South (aka where Catholicism is growing), lacy vestments and Baroque music are not how they worship God. Heck, the Extraordinary Form Mass is foreign to them. Perhaps we should encourage them to mock Cardinal Burke's vestments.. (Or we could just draw a truce, but that is just me.)

Jackie said...

Kelly - the Liturgy is 'The Work of God'. Parishes don't get to vote to decide 'how to do it to suit us'. The Church has decided - in this case communicated by the GIRM and other documents.

Some items on the video are areas of opinion - Greeters - if a parish wants greeters - have greeters - it's outside of the Liturgy. (We can debate the usefulness or how to best have greeters - but that is not the crux of this discussion.)

But many of them have been decided by the Church. Kneeling during the Consecration, generally the actions of the priest in the sanctuary, etc. It's not a vote. It's not up to the parish. The fact that you don't care 'what vestments the priest is wearing' or 'what music is used' or 'how the altar is set' - just confuses me. One you ought to care because our Mother the Church cares. Two you ought to care because you want your priest and parish to be obedient to our Mother the Church. And three you ought to care to find out why our Mother the Church has decided to specify these things - because She is not arbitrary and out of love wants what is best for us.

I'm not sure what Latin America has to do with this. In general, they have the same directions about the Liturgy and same 'rules' - with a few differences.

It's not a war or a truce - it's be obedient.

Kelly Groen said...

Again.. Why do you exactly care that others aren't following the rules? If they are being disobedient isn't it on them? I don't think that God will strike you dead because a parish in Menomonee Falls, WI isn't following the rubrics as set out by the Congregation for Divine Worship. God can take it up with them in His own time if He cares. It just strikes me as odd that you care what people you have never met do during a Mass that you aren't attending at a parish you will never attend. It really must be upsetting and tiresome to worry about a You Tube video of a parish that you don't attend. Why not just ignore it and pray for them?

And I agree that if you are concerned about the liturgy at your parish and don't find it spiritually fulfilling you should speak with the priest respectfully. I'm sure that he will listen to you. However, I really don't get the time and energy wasted on whining about a parish you don't attend not fulfilling the rubrics. Seriously.. exactly, how much time and effort have you guys spent mocking and criticizing people that you don't know? Why exactly are you expending your energy on this?

The Correiras said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tuleesh said...

Our Lady of Akita said there'd be days like this:
"...The Church will be full of those who accept compromises, and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord."

And it looks like God [has given] them over to [their] reprobate mind.

It's time to double down on the St. Michael's Prayer. Recite it prayerfully. Fr there are probably quite a few souls in that parish who don't really understand the consequences of what is permitted and promoted there. It would be and Act of Mercy to pray for them... and us.

David Madeley said...

Kelly, I agree with some of what you've said. Bear in mind that this was a video made public, I believe, by the parish - so it would be strange to say it is the parish's business and no concern of anyone else's. The internet stretches far wider than the parish boundaries. I know at least two people who, when they became interested in the faith, just typed Catholic Church into youtube - would you want them to see this?

I think you may be overestimating the amount of energy people are putting into this. Looking at the posts, there are a lot of them but no single post is longer than about 25 lines. CMR posts about a range of issues, and people comment on a range of issues. People are talking straight, sure. That doesn't mean they're angry, necessarily.

We've had a great show on TV here recently called Educating Yorkshire - a documentary series set in a failing school, which is being turned around by a new management team. The school had 99 problems, you might say, but the very first thing they focused on was strictly enforcing the uniform policy - and in time that had a positive knock-on effect on other, more serious behaviour problems. My point is: it's not always possible to draw a line between the rules that really matter and the rules which don't matter. Once people find ways round the latter, they feel empowered to get round the former.

Mary's Child Mariann said...

@Kelly, I continue to have this argument it seems everywhere I go. Kelly, please listen. You have put words in my mouth (lacey garments...blah, blah, blah). The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, where possible, should be given (as was given to us) the best of all we have at that moment at that location. It is all about following the command of Jesus, about giving the one, Triune God worship (which up until the fuzziness was added in Vat II documents), was consistent and universal. Here are just a few items that may add clarity regarding my concerns: -The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass...is an action divinely living, inexhaustibly fruitful for etrnal life; ...is giving God infinite honor and thanksgiving and offering a most worthy expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation (It radiates a most efficacious prayer in which Jesus, bridge between God and man, supplicates for us in a way that is always pleasing to His Father)...is transmitting to us the priceless things Christ bought with His Blood (It sends out to our souls the fire of purification, the sanctifying and saving energy accumulated and stored by Jesus in the Powerhouse of His Cross). Instrumental is the ordained Priest at the altar, who acts in the person of Christ and acts also for the entire Church, His Mystical Body, and for everyone of the faithful. The faithful should endeavor to "have this mind in (them) which was also in Christ" in all humility, adoring, praising, thanking God, offering themselves to Him, as victims, together with the Divine Victim. The prayers and readings of the Missal are their best means of having in truth The Mind of Christ...St Pious X Daily Missal

John Byde said...

"What exactly is the rightful place of the LGBT community in the Church as it differs from the rightful place of any sinner?" a PERFECT riposte. Their rights are no different from any other sinner of whatever "orientation": Leave your ego and wish list at the door, get on your knees and ask for forgiveness. Unfortunately, that isn't good enough for this supremely narcissistic group of people. There is a whole spate of articles right now by homosexual believers who hope that if they argue long enough, they will turn black into white and change Churhc doctrine. They won't.

Salvelinus fontinalis said...

Actually, this is quite approriate for the way SC and the Vatican II documents were written.... Stop trying to defend the indefencible... Nothing has killed the faith more than that useless council

Kelly Groen said...

@David Madeley. I'm even more concerned that people might type in Catholic and go to a website or forum where people spend their whole time arguing with each other about the finer points of the rubrics. Did you know that there are whole sites dedicated to liturgical clothes or how the altar is set up? And that people are upset with Pope Francis because of the vestments he wears? A friend directed me to some of these sites. They can get very nasty and people get really angry. I think that it really doesn't make Catholics look good.

@May Child's Mariann. I've never focused on the details like how the altar is set up because I'm too focused on praying to God. I didn't know these things were important to some people until a friend told me that there was a whole sub-culture around them.

Athelstane said...

Hello Kelly,

"Why do you exactly care that others aren't following the rules?"

Because they can lead others into error.

I do not live in or near Menomonee Falls, WI. But as a Catholic, charity demands that I do care when error is being perpetrated on the innocent in the Church's name. Justice requires that the local ordinary takes steps to make sure that these abuses are stopped.

Mary's Child Mariann said...

@Kelly, You've lost me. What you responded doesn't respond to my response, therefore, I'm lost on what you are trying to say. Unless you are really young, and do not have knowledge of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, is the only reason I can understand your lack of understanding of what is Divine and what is happening at the Menomonee Falls parish.

Amy MEV said...

I'm only one minute in and I've a;ready puked in my mouth...twice.

Chris-2-4 said...

The parish certainly sounds like they have more than their fair share of cultural practices to go along with a certain amount of liturgical abuse.

I have to take exception though to the judgement that the bread they use is illicit. Our church uses "Substantial Bread" for our Sunday masses and it's perfectly within the rubrics. Made from Wheat Flour and Water alone, but it is thick like bread might be. Perhaps they are adding something else, but there is nothing in the video to determine that they are using illicit bread.

In short, "Unleavened Bread" does not mean "Pressed Wafer".

GP said...

Apostasy, disobedience, etc., name it as you wish but this parish needs major reform and revival in the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. And the deacon needs re-instruction and renewal on liturgy and the whole works. SPEECHLESS!!!

GP said...

Apostasy, disobedience, etc., name it as you wish but this parish needs major reform and revival in the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. And the deacon needs re-instruction and renewal on liturgy and the whole works. SPEECHLESS!!!

JD said...

Similar to st joe's in Ottawa canada.. St-josephs.ca

David Madeley said...

Kelly, which sites are we talking about here? I maintain that no-one spends "their whole time" arguing about rubrics - even Bishop Williamson performs marriages, gives retreats, and so on.

You mentioned discussion about Pope Francis' vestments, and discussion about altar cloths. Those are both areas which touch on form rather than matter. No-one is saying that Pope Francis' choice of vestments invalidates the masses he says. The issue here is far more serious - leavened bread is not valid matter for the mass.

Unknown said...

Kelly:

I live in Milwaukee. This parish is not following the rules, and seems determined to make up their own.

David Madeley:

Leavened bread is illicit but not invalid, as it is the normal matter used in the Byzantine and Coptic liturgies. That said, it should be used in the Roman Rite only under the most extreme circumstances (secret Mass in prison, for example).

Dave P.

phlogiston1667 said...

Dave P., while leavened bread may "only" be illicit, the bread used in the Mass must only be made of wheat to be valid matter. The good Deacon in the video distinguishes their bread from the normal hosts calling it actual bread. To make that kind of distinction, I think it is reasonable to assume they are not using bread that is JUST wheat, but are getting oh-so-creative with their recipes. I would have to conclude that they are attempting to consecrate invalid matter and their mass is just a simulation. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not take the chance. Invalid matter= no consecration=Protestant.

phlogiston1667 said...

GP, you say the parish needs "major reform and revival in the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church." I disagree. That parish simply needs to be closed.

David Madeley said...

I stand corrected - but my point was there is a distinction to be made between (a) heated discussions about which liturgical practises maximise devotion and (b) heated discussions about whether the validity of the sacrament itself is being undermined. We'd all like to raise the tone of debate on forums like these, but let's be clear what we're dealing with.

Gregory Orcutt said...

Hey, that's Weakland's old diocese!! I bet they miss him!
The liberals want him back, and the devil wants him in. Guess those two constituencies will have to fight over him.

Nick said...

All I heard was: "Hi, welcome to Good Shepard, me me me, you you you, we we we, me me me, you you you, us us us, etc..." Nothing about God and His deserved reverence and worship.

Nick said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Kelly Groen said...

David Madeley.. There is a site that I was recently shown called the New Liturgical Movement. There I also another site called Catholic Answers and another one run by what seems to be a priest, Father Z? It seems like there are plenty discussions on these sites about liturgical rubrics. There are also lots of whining about Pope Francis' vestments and really trivial things. It seems me that heated discussions about this are even more damaging to evangelization than Good Shepherd. It confirms the Protestants worst caricatures about us.

David Madeley said...

New Liturgical Movement? That's your example of a mouth-frothing trad-fest? NLM is the most mild-mannered, scholarly website you will ever see. The writers are all either priests or lettered lay people. And Fr Z too? No-one's done more to defend Pope Francis to planet trad than Fr Z. Now, if you'd said the Remnant, or Fisheaters - which are excellent, but more controversial - I might have understood. I'm not saying things are perfect but you need to do your research. No-one's going to take you seriously if you think Fr Z is a radical extremist.

On a more positive note, you might want to help me persuade these people to buy kneelers for Deacon Sandy's parish. See my comments on on the most recent Deacon Sandy post.

David Madeley said...

Regarding protestants - they care about liturgy as well. There are some lovely liturgies in the Anglican and Lutheran communities, and a corresponding desire to preserve and protect them, which spills over into anger from time to time. Equally there are impatient reformers in both communities and the two tendencies clash. In the world of free churches, there is plenty of heated discussion about what's best - and if the megachurch near me is anything to go by, no expense is spared in creating a liturgy as up-to-date as possible. I'd say the only place where there is no argument about liturgy is the Quakers - because they don't have one!

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