Comments on Creative Minority Report: Archbishop of Canterbury Is No James T. Kirk

Terry, This is fun. 1. Does anyone actually oppose...

2009-11-22T00:04:20.550-05:00

Terry,
This is fun.
1. Does anyone actually oppose safe driving? And the way it works, the Vatican teaches, individuals listen and freely accept the responsibility to apply the lesson to their own lives. The fact that we were both aware of the Vatican post on driving shows that it had some effect (at least on awareness if not our personal driving habits :-)). But we're not really talking about the effectiveness of the speaker are we? We are discussing whether it was an idea well supported by Christian theology. And the safe driving passes.

2. I found this post a very humorous way to gently poke fun at the socialist implications of Dr. Rowan's statement. It is not name-calling - it's a socialist parable.

3. The whole speech is not commonsense. It is a proposal to order the economy according to Rowan's philosophy and urging the ideological acceptance of taxation (without actually reviewing actual consequences of a specific tax policy). Sure creating a sustainable habitat for families sounds lofty and beautiful, but his approach to that (taxation) has questionable effectiveness.

4. Happily for me the theology links you provided didn't work so I don't have to further comment on them. Rowan's chops duly noted.

5.Quote: Moving on to describe a “human life well-lived”, Dr Williams said: “If you live in a world where everything encourages you to struggle for your own individual interest and success, you are being encouraged to ignore the reality of other points of view – ultimately, to ignore the cost or the pain of others.

"Everything" promotes self-interest? Perhaps the teachings of the Anglican Communion should be having some effect on believers???

That's the point of the ridicule of Rowan: he's a theologian proposing an economic plan. He has correctly identified economic "evils" that are not consistent with Christianity (this is probably the commonsense part you found). But his solution is hardly leading people to Christ - supporting government programs by paying taxes instead of evaluating one's personal actions is not going to change the world's encouragement of selfish behavior nor cause an individual to recognize their own faults. Sure people can support these programs for the right reasons, but a Christian could also support a completely different program for the same right reason.

Agreed. Couldn't one increase one's tithing, in r...

2009-11-21T21:24:19.558-05:00

Agreed.

Couldn't one increase one's tithing, in response to increased taxation (perhaps work out a pre-tax donation amount?) in order to lower one's tax bracket, and thus, pay less? So in this case, you are still paying more, but you can be assured of where (most of) the money is going.

Of course, we should also give unto Caesar that which is Caesars.

As far as The Pope's comments on one world governm...

2009-11-21T18:11:56.033-05:00

As far as The Pope's comments on one world government...It will come to pass.

Our duty is love and evangelism, keeping The Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus. Love and forgive...for our time here is short.

God doesn't want or need our money, but He does wa...

2009-11-21T18:05:58.085-05:00

God doesn't want or need our money, but He does want our obedience. Tithing is an act of obedience.

Ok, I cannot understand why every Catholic blog di...

2009-11-21T12:22:32.813-05:00

Ok, I cannot understand why every Catholic blog did not link to this post...its witty & true. Great work, once again!

1) I can imagine that the first thing that people ...

2009-11-20T22:28:17.671-05:00

1) I can imagine that the first thing that people with road rage will think about, when they get angry, will be how amusing this article was. Its a brilliant strategy.

2) The Archbishop vs. Star Trek comparison may be illuminative for a certain sort of person, but ultimately it falls into the same category as the Pope vs. Star Wars comparison, namely, ridiculous name-calling.

3) I'll presume that you've only read the quoted part above, and not the whole speech. http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/11/rowan-williams-crunchy-con.html

That gives a bit more of the speech, which sounds surprisingly "common sense" to me, so much so that it reminds me of "Charity in Truth". I suppose if I were to take a quote that I don't agree with out of context, I too could misconstrue it as well. For instance, remember that "world political authority" the Pope called for this summer? I can't imagine that wouldn't require higher taxes as well.

4) Historical theologian. There is actually a difference between modern theological inquiry (those folks that we call "theologians"), and the historical study of theological development. For instance, if we were to talk about William's recent comments on "female bishops" being a second order concern in Catholic/Anglican dialogue, we both could agree that its silly, and that Rowan as modern theologian is silly as well.

But his academic work seems to be in the Church Fathers, which is actually very good. Since most laymen don't read academic articles and books on theology, it seems pointless to provide a link, but if you want to, you can read Williams on Augustine: http://books.google.com/books?id=N0pP9rYOcdoC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=rowan+williams,+augustine&source=bl&ots=KFxyfGO4fg&sig=FIHPhlQCq6xHyMTDj1ihAE2Vv_o&hl=en&ei=t1gHS433FYu_lAeBlpGFBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=rowan%20williams%2C%20augustine&f=false

Or perhaps Williams authoritative work on Arius:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5QoRowuRAWMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=arius#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Thanks for biting.

Terry: OK, I'll bite. 1) About the 10 commandment...

2009-11-20T10:59:25.096-05:00

Terry:
OK, I'll bite.

1) About the 10 commandments for driving. Amusing, yes. Absurd, no. Have you never heard of road rage? It would be absurd if the Vatican were trying to tell everyone that all driving must cease immediately due to the possibility of drivers being led to sin. But the post was a common sense reflection on dealing with a common occasion of sin. Some would say the 10 commandment format was intentionally humorous.

2) The Pope vs Star Wars character link. The supposed connections were all Catholic-bashing nonsense. Nothing intellectual or thought provoking about mentioning Hilter youth (yawn, again!).

3)Rowan's comments were in support of taxation. CMR's comment humorously analysed them in the context of a Star Wars movie. The difference between Rowan's comments and the 10 commandments are that the message of the driving document are common sense points about driving with care and do not involve giving additional powers to the government. Rowan's points involve the not-so-common sense advise to pay taxes quietly without using one's intelligence to decide whether or not these taxes are doing what they are supposed to. So based on Rowan's word, we are not to question whether higher taxes hurt businesses? Because he's knowledgeable in business and theology??

4) Your posts do not provide any links to support your contention that Rowan is an accomplished theologian, a point I will accept as a courtesy. Nonetheless, I would be very surprised to find his books accepted as insightful by Catholic theologians. My point is only that Catholic theology has a different take on the proper role of government and that even I can see Rowan is not in the Catholic ballpark.

The difference is the Vatican was making a humorous but common sense point about a serious topic and Rowan made a silly socialist point about a serious topic.

There is a difference between the academic discipl...

2009-11-20T00:49:05.837-05:00

There is a difference between the academic discipline of historical theology, and actual theology. I've always found Williams actual theology somewhat shallow, but his historical theology is solid-his Augustine work, and book on Arius being good example of that.

But as a bishop he's quite awful.

That being said, I found the quality of reply to my post to be of the highest quality. How delightfully pithy and intelligent the few responses to me have been! Early Riser apparently found more in my response than I had written-a keen eye. And Anonymous commented on my response while I was sleeping-prophetic. And It fills me with joy to show Clinton this:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0703503.htm

and this:
http://www.unsoughtinput.com/index.php/2006/12/27/pope-benedict-or-emperor-palpatine/.

I agree, both are absurd.

Craig, very much like Rowan, really don't deserve ...

2009-11-19T18:30:00.736-05:00

Craig, very much like Rowan, really don't deserve to be taken seriously.

sorry "It's one thing..." not "It's only thing..."...

2009-11-19T15:32:33.716-05:00

sorry "It's one thing..." not "It's only thing..."

Craig, the distinction is between voluntary and in...

2009-11-19T14:44:26.277-05:00

Craig, the distinction is between voluntary and involuntary giving. It's only thing to call for people to increase their charitable giving to "make the world a better place in which to live." It's another thing to call for the government to increase taxes to achieve the same goal.

Of course, nightfly, you give money to your church...

2009-11-19T12:49:56.526-05:00

Of course, nightfly, you give money to your church to help make it a better place and help those in need.
That is why the Archbishop is saying people should look at tax dollars in a similar light.

Star Trek V, "I need my pain." That's why we watch...

2009-11-19T11:49:52.358-05:00

Star Trek V, "I need my pain." That's why we watch this movie. It's funny except, you made me remember this movie and that is a grave offense.

Craig - we don't give the money to God because He ...

2009-11-19T11:48:44.037-05:00

Craig - we don't give the money to God because He needs it, but because the Church serves His people with it. It keeps the worship building open and in good repair, subsidizes the school and catechism programs, and provides funds for many charitable outreaches such as food, shelter, and ministry. At the very least, it helps pay the priest.

Susan P., According to Mr. Archbold, God doesn't ...

2009-11-19T11:34:45.506-05:00

Susan P.,

According to Mr. Archbold, God doesn't need money, so why do you give Him any money at all?

So what do you call the part where Uhura does her ...

2009-11-19T10:57:09.050-05:00

So what do you call the part where Uhura does her sultry fan dance? Besides contrived, that is.

Craig, I don't think that the Vatican can put a li...

2009-11-19T09:59:01.464-05:00

Craig, I don't think that the Vatican can put a lien on your house, or put you in jail, or any other thing that the govt can do, if you do not contribute to the collection plate.

What I give to the Church, I give voluntarily. I don't *give* anything to the IRS, it is taken.

Really? There is no difference?

This.. is the best post I've ever seen anywhere on...

2009-11-19T09:21:30.384-05:00

This.. is the best post I've ever seen anywhere on the internet, ever.

-Chris M.

I regularly enjoy your witty comments via Twitter,...

2009-11-19T08:50:55.396-05:00

I regularly enjoy your witty comments via Twitter, though I less often read your blog posts. But after reading this one, I had to stop here to say that this one had me laughing out loud. Thank you!

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool...

2009-11-19T08:17:12.535-05:00

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool...

If God doesn't need money, what's all this stuff a...

2009-11-19T06:39:25.977-05:00

If God doesn't need money, what's all this stuff about tithing doing in the Bible?
Why do churches regularly pass around the collection plate?

Terry - in the spirit of my PSAT's; Rowan is to Be...

2009-11-19T01:33:33.860-05:00

Terry - in the spirit of my PSAT's; Rowan is to Benedict like kite is to eagle. Rowan (aka the "Grand Druid" as he is called in the UK) has no taste for truth, orthodoxy or higher thinking. He is a pseudo-intellectual who is merely gliding along the tide of popular opinion and modernist trends. Was it controversial that he should praise Shari'a law in his country, calling it "inevitable" that it should be implemented? Hardly. Was it scholarly? Nope. Was it appropriate for a Christian leader in a Christian country to say? Not in a million years. But was it expected? Absolutely. Wouldn't have expected anything less from him.

Terry, You dream.

2009-11-19T01:07:25.729-05:00

Terry,
You dream.

Oh, Terry... You had me going, piling one absurdit...

2009-11-19T01:03:26.886-05:00

Oh, Terry... You had me going, piling one absurdity atop another.
I even thought you were serious, until I read that last sentence.

Thanks for the chuckles.

And how is this any different than the "10 Command...

2009-11-18T23:46:57.503-05:00

And how is this any different than the "10 Commandments of driving" released by the Vatican a couple years ago? Or is it a blunder equal to Benedict's anti-Islamic quote a few years back? And doesn't Benedict look like the Emperor?

Sorry-I actually like Williams. Sadly, Rowan couldn't enforce orthodoxy now if he wanted to. And if he did, the American Episcopal bishops would be intolerable. But to Williams credit, he is a historical theologian of equal or greater caliber to Benedict.